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Author Topic: nitrogen in tires  (Read 7617 times)

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Sean M Cary

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2009, 04:40:03 PM »

Good question, I never watched. 

I do wonder if they do draw it down to a vacuum like you do to a Air conditioning system before you add the freon.

I know, in my garage I could do just that, as I have a vacuum pump designed just for that

wouldn't it break the bead seal?
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jeffj

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #16 on: May 30, 2009, 07:01:57 PM »

Good question, I never watched. 

I do wonder if they do draw it down to a vacuum like you do to a Air conditioning system before you add the freon.

I know, in my garage I could do just that, as I have a vacuum pump designed just for that

the regular air is purged out of tire down to 3 psi (hence not to break the bead)
then nitrogen is inflated to desired level and then repurged to 1/2 of desired air pressure
once again the nitrogen machine refills the tires to desired psi
most machines will pump 95% nitrogen back into tire

I have nitrogen in my scoots tires and the psi remains very constant with my desired level
If I didn't have Legend Air Ride System - I would also install in air shocks as it would help the big air swings


jeffj
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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #17 on: May 31, 2009, 06:39:18 AM »

 8) 8) Never thought about putting it in air shocks, but how would you be able to do it, you have to use a hand pump  to keep from blowing out the shocks.  :nixweiss:
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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #18 on: May 31, 2009, 09:55:33 AM »

8) 8) Never thought about putting it in air shocks, but how would you be able to do it, you have to use a hand pump  to keep from blowing out the shocks.  :nixweiss:


have a portable air tank that is only used with nitrogen

then just use an air pressure regulator and be carefull - I'm thinking  :nixweiss:


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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #19 on: May 31, 2009, 11:49:05 AM »


Just a few rambling thoughts to be thrown out for review, comment, disdain, whatever.

Some folks seem to have this strange idea that nitrogen does not change pressure with changes in temperature (while held at a constant volume).  I have to admit, it's been a lot of years since I took chemistry and physics classes, but I don't remember the various laws concerning gases making an exception for nitrogen.  Did I perhaps sleep through that particular class?  Oh, and here's one for those who like to point out that race cars use nitrogen.  Have any of you heard the announcers talking about how the driver's have to be careful to get the tires up to temperature because the pressures are low immediately after a tire change?  If you haven't, try watching more Indy or Formula 1 type racing.

Yes, oxygen and water vapor will cause the atmospheric air to change pressure a little more and with more variability than pure nitrogen, but not to the extent that some imply.  And the fact remains, the specifications for inflation of your tires, air shocks, etc. were set up using atmospheric air.  So the expansion and contraction rates have already been accounted for in that tire inflation specification.  If nitrogen really was magic and didn't expand, wouldn't you risk being underinflated once the tire reached operating temperature?  I have to assume the knowledgeable nitrogen users calculate all this and add a percentage to the recommended cold inflation spec to compensate. :nixweiss: Anyone like to share the formula so everyone can benefit?

Independent studies have shown that tires inflated with nitrogen leak down only very slightly slower than tires with plain old atmospheric air in them.  So assuming we check our tire pressures only once a month instead of the more appropriate weekly check, where is the big advantage?  So my tire leaked down 0.8 psi instead of 0.5 psi, BFD.

Ok, now I've spent a $100 bill getting all (sure thing) that nasty old air out of my tires and the magical pure nitrogen installed, and I'm tooling through Bumf$%* Egypt when I get a leak.  I locate a service station which only has plain old air, and after plugging the tire I have to add that nasty old air to the tire.  Now I have to return to my nitrogen supplier and pay again to have the nasty old air purged from the tire and the magical nitrogen installed.  Someone with an advanced degree in economics is going to have to explain to me how all this money I'm spending is saving me money or time or anything else.  As I said many times before in these threads, all I can see is that my money is going to enrich some scam artist who would probably be running a ponzi scheme or selling swamp land to little old ladies if he hadn't latched on to this nitrogen idea first.

Oh yeah, assuming you don't invest in your own nitrogen generator (need to hear from that economics fellow again, now the cost has really escalated), where do you get the makeup nitrogen to top off your tires and shocks as they leak down (let's just be nice and acknowledge they still leak down, even with magical nitrogen installed)?  And even if there were no leakage at all, don't you have to release and add this stuff to adjust the shocks?  Oh, I understand.  We'll just fill the shocks initially to the maximum value, and then bleed some off into a hermetically sealed container until we reach the value for normal one-up riding.  Next time we want to ride fully loaded, we just pull out the bottle and add the previously removed nitrogen back into the shocks.  OR, we could pay that nice man at the nitrogen store to fill up our little portable air tank that we keep in the garage for topping off our tires.  I just hope I never have to make adjustments while on the road, however.  That 3 gallon tank is a real bitch to carry along unless you have a trailer or a chase vehicle.

Here's my last point, then I'll shut up.  Some will also throw out the oxidation argument, as in the oxygen that makes up roughly 20% of the atmosphere causes oxidation of the rubber which in turn causes it to age and crack and start looking like your 99 year old grandmother.  I've been trying my best to think back over the nearly 50 years of messing with cars, bikes, and other things with tires on them to remember if I ever saw a tire fail because the interior rubber fell apart due to oxidation.  I know my mind is getting feeble at my advanced age, but I swear I cannot remember even one time when that has happened.  Of course, I remember lots of tires with ozone damage to the outside of the tire.  Haven't figured out yet how we can surround the outside of the tire with nitrogen so we can eliminate that problem.  Maybe one of the nitrogen scam artists purveyors can work on another service they could offer to bathe the tire in nitrogen as you drive.  Probably be a lot more expensive than the $100 to fill four tires, but what's a little money to those who want the very best for their tires?  Of course, once that guy with the advanced degree in economics gets back to us with the final numbers, we may find it's just a whole lot cheaper to buy new tires more often.

Jerry


All this debate has gotten me to thinking, perhaps what we need to use is propane.  Then, when we're in the middle of grilling dinner and the damned tank runs dry we can hook our tires to the grill to save the day.  At least then I wouldn't feel like I had wasted all that money to fill my tires with something other than good ol' free air.
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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #20 on: May 31, 2009, 08:32:29 PM »


OK, I know I said I was finished with this thread, but I just couldn't resist this.  It appears that all the hype about nitrogen in tires has led Shell Oil to decide that the word nitrogen has magical properties in terms of selling gasoline.  Thus we have the new "Nitrogen Enriched Gasoline" being heavily promoted at the Shell station near you.  I have to take it back, this stuff obviously is magical.

------------------------------------
Shell Launches New Nitrogen Enriched Gasolines  02/03/2009
Introducing a new molecule designed to seek and destroy engine gunk in both conventional and modern engines.

Houston – Today at Shell stations across the U.S., consumers will fill-up with a new product at the pumps.  Shell is introducing the all-new Nitrogen Enriched Gasolines, containing a unique, patented cleaning system designed to seek and destroy engine “gunk” (carbon deposits) in all three grades of gasoline.  The new Nitrogen Enriched cleaning system protects and cleans up gunky build-up on intake valves and fuel injectors left by lower quality gasolines.

Nitrogen is a key element of the active cleaning molecule in the new fuel, making it significantly more stable at higher temperatures common in modern engines, such as direct fuel-injection gasoline engines. The increased stability ensures that the molecule can work under much tougher engine conditions by resisting thermal breakdown better than conventional cleaning additives.

“At Shell, our ‘Passionate Experts’ are dedicated to helping motorists get the most out of every drop of gasoline,” said Jens Mueller-Belau, Fuels Portfolio and Category Manager North America, Shell Retail.. “With Nitrogen Enriched Gasolines, our scientists have increased the effectiveness of our cleaning additive, offering consumers our most advanced technology ever.”

 In addition to developing the new fuel with the consumer in mind, Shell worked very closely with automotive manufacturers to gain insight into current and future engine technologies.  These insights along with fuels technology leadership and a strong research and development program help Shell continually improve its products.

Nitrogen Enriched Gasolines were tested in laboratories, independent testing facilities, and on the road, accumulating more than a half-million miles in various vehicles and engines—including conventional, turbo-charged, and direct fuel-injection gasoline engines, hybrids, newer vehicles with low mileage, and older vehicles with high mileage.

Shell scientists also used innovative testing technologies such as dual fuel engines to conduct head-to-head comparisons with other lower quality gasolines.  In these tests, split engines simultaneously run on different types of gasoline in order to collect data under the exact same conditions. The results of these head-to-head comparisons proved that the Shell Nitrogen Enriched Gasolines are more effective than lower quality gasolines in protecting against the build-up of harmful engine gunk.
 
“In today’s tough economy, American drivers are concerned about protecting their vehicle since it’s one of their largest investments,” said Mueller-Belau. “We want to help protect that investment.  That’s why we want them to educate consumers that there is a difference in the gasoline they choose.  Using lower quality gasolines can result in gunky build-up on critical engine parts, negatively impacting engine performance. Shell gasolines help drivers say ‘No’ to gunk.”

The Nitrogen Enriched formula is proven to prevent build-up of gunk more effectively than gasolines containing only the minimum amount of cleaning agents as required by the EPA.

The new cleaning system is certified to meet the TOP TIER Detergent Gasoline  Standard – voluntary standards designated by some of the world’s top automakers (Audi, BMW, GM, Honda, Toyota, Volkswagen) to try to raise the bar on fuel quality beyond minimum government criteria.  Industry research has proven that a clean engine results in better fuel efficiency, reduced emissions, and overall optimal vehicle performance.

In addition, Shell V-Power® premium gasoline provides maximum protection with the highest concentration of the Nitrogen Enriched cleaning system and more than five times the minimum amount of cleaning agents required by federal government standards. It seeks and destroys engine gunk even faster than regular Shell gasoline, providing maximum protection to help vehicles maintain peak performance.

Shell is supporting the launch of Nitrogen Enriched Gasolines with a national marketing campaign, including national TV, radio and online advertising, as well as point-of-purchase signage at Shell-branded stations nationwide. The new campaign builds-on the current “Passionate Experts” platform, focusing on the company’s commitment to fuel quality and passion for developing innovative new products.

“At Shell, we believe it’s important to educate consumers that all gasolines are not the same—high quality gasoline can make a difference in a vehicle,” said Karen Wildman, Shell U.S. brand and communications manager.  “We’re dedicated to continuous product improvement and innovation, and to helping consumers get the most out of every drop.”

For additional information on Shell Nitrogen Enriched Gasolines, visit www.passionate-experts.shell.com.
----------------------

OK, now I really am finished with this thread.  I promise.  Well, unless something else pops up like nitrogen enriched breakfast cereals.

Jerry
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spydglide

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #21 on: May 31, 2009, 09:43:56 PM »

thanks Jerry......I'm gonna get me some of that new Shell gas. Nothing too good for my SEEG.   :-* har!  spyder
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jimp

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2009, 10:41:07 AM »

All you nitrogen guys should make sure you are using medical grade Nitrogen, because its sterile. Also make sure you pull your tires down to 50 millitorrs before charging.  :-X
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DESERTBEAR54

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #23 on: June 23, 2009, 04:53:09 PM »

Airliners,Corp Jets,Military aircraft all use nitrogen in there tires. The reason for that is because of all the moisture in compressed air. There is no moisture in Nitrogen filled bottles. On a motorcycle your not crusing at 45,000 ft so you wont have to worry about your tires freezing before you brake!!
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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #24 on: June 24, 2009, 12:38:40 PM »

Put a drier on the compressor and that problem is solved.

So air is about 78% nitrogen, 21% oxygen and 1% everything else.   And nitrogen is supposed to stay in better than everything else...so wouldn't that 22% leak out quicker and leave N behind?  Keep adding air and eventually all that is left should be nitrogen and the other larger molecules.  Unless you have a vintage bike and you want to keep the original tires it sounds like regular air is fine.
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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #25 on: June 24, 2009, 07:50:39 PM »

I don't like to use nitrogen in the tires because it makes their voice get all high and squeaky.



















Wait, that may not be right...
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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #26 on: June 24, 2009, 07:59:17 PM »

I don't like to use nitrogen in the tires because it makes their voice get all high and squeaky.
Wait, that may not be right...


Don

Not to start anything but your post made me think of something.

GH and Tommy are complaining about squeaking in their front end after they had Traxxion installed.

Wonder if they have nitrogen in their tires and don't realize where the squeaking is coming from?

 :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:
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Twolanerider

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #27 on: June 24, 2009, 08:02:45 PM »


Don

Not to start anything but your post made me think of something.

GH and Tommy are complaining about squeaking in their front end after they had Traxxion installed.

Wonder if they have nitrogen in their tires and don't realize where the squeaking is coming from?

 :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss: :nixweiss:

Ooooh, that would be bad.


Ok, all teasing aside for a moment, do they know what's up with their Traxxion Dynamics suspension jobs?  Max's shop has always seemed to do such an excellent job.  Repetitive anomalies that close together is not what you'd expect.
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Sean M Cary

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #28 on: June 24, 2009, 08:04:27 PM »

I don't like to use nitrogen in the tires because it makes their voice get all high and squeaky.

Wait, that may not be right...

everybody knows its sucking balloons that makes your voice squeaky...

so, they must have balloons in their front ends

sheesh

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Twolanerider

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Re: nitrogen in tires
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2009, 08:06:33 PM »

everybody knows its sucking balloons that makes your voice squeaky...

so, they must have balloons in their front ends

sheesh




Anything for a softer ride man. 


Unless you're talking about passenger bosoms.  If they squeak that's a whole different problem.  Especially if they had to be inflated to begin with :o .
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