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[syclone]

i think the original dyno numbers were high before the camshaft because he had the freedom pipes,filter and map. i wasnt just the new cam install. so from the stock to new numbers looks pretty good [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=banana.gif]

I understand what you're saying , but I look at it like this. My SEEG made just over 100hp and 103 tq with slipons , a/c, and SERT. SERT was $369.00. slipons $340.00 and a/c $150.00 ..for a total of $860.00.  So this bike has the Freedom package for $1400.00 and a $900.00 cam kit . $2300.00 minus $860.00 leaves $1440.00  additional... for 8 ftlbs of torque more. And if you cant do the  cams yourself...another $280.00-350.00 for.. labor.
I'll wait on Zippers... this just aint givin me a woodie!

[Twolanerider]

I'll wait on Zippers... this just aint givin me a woodie!

Syclone, for what it's worth I was a little underwhelmed as well.  Pretty expensive cams all by themselves.  Could do a lot of preventative maintenance cam shoe changes every 15k for that much scratch since there's not a decent performance gain to go along with the cost.  Will also be curious to see what the project that Unbalanced and DCFireman have been telling us about from Zippers offers and costs.  Does seem difficult though to spend almost a grand to barely break even.

[hd-dude]

I talked with Brad again about the cams. The pricing is the same as others (Andrew's, S&S, ect). For the cams, gear drive, bearing kit it retails for about $700.00. Add Andrews or Jims pushrods (he does not recommend Screamin Eagle) and new tubes for about $180 and there is the $900.00

As far as performance increase goes the main goal with this cam is to get a mild increase, keep it "bolt in", and get rid of the chain drive. Keep in mind that these bike already have what HD refers to as a "performance " cam. So the performance increase is not as substantial, (similar to the increase you would get in an 88" by adding a 26G or 37G). He is pleased with the results of this cam and stated a few time that the dyno sheet is only a snapshot of the performance. When the torque is increased all across the rpm range you really feel it on the "seat of the pant" dyno and that's where it really matters.

I'm not saying that these cams are the answer and I will be waiting on Zippers as well to see what they come up with. But as far as  a bolt in cam that runs well in the CVO 103 motor and gets rid of chains thaey seem to have accomplished what they set out to do.

[CVOJOE]

Underwhelmed is looking like the initial impressions here, but in fairness this is not the final product release. With the normal perf. upgrades like improving the breathing and exhaust systems, and dyno w/SERT or PCIII, those numbers are not that much greater than what we're already seeing. We're all looking at getting rid of the chain tensioner liability/reliability issue but $900, + labor if having it done, just doesn't seem worth it at this point in time.  Let's see what Zippers comes up with and let the market place and hopefully a demand from the likes of us drive the prices down a bit.  Wish MOCO would go to gear drive in the first place.[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[110tHunDer]

When the torque is increased all across the rpm range you really feel it on the "seat of the pant" dyno and that's where it really matters.

'dude, that is an important point that I was just getting ready to make after looking at the dyno sheet again.  If you only look at the peak TQ and HP gains (which is what is stated on the dyno sheet with the "max" figures), you might very well be underwhelmed with actually a 0.7 decrease in peak HP and just a 5.8 gain in TQ, but if you look at the gains in each throughout the RPM range on the graph, you see as much as about 5 HP gained and around 9 TQ, mostly across the board.  Plus, the (Rinehart induced?) dip in TQ between about 1,700 and 2500 rpm has been all but eliminated with the cam change.

Point is, it can be misleading to only look at the the "maximum" amounts.  You need to consider the bigger picture.

[hd-dude]

'dude, that is an important point that I was just getting ready to make after looking at the dyno sheet again.  If you only look at the peak TQ and HP gains (which is what is stated on the dyno sheet with the "max" figures), you might very well be underwhelmed with actually a 0.7 decrease in peak HP and just a 5.8 gain in TQ, but if you look at the gains in each throughout the RPM range on the graph, you see as much as about 5 HP gained and around 9 TQ, mostly across the board.  Plus, the (Rinehart induced?) dip in TQ between about 1,700 and 2500 rpm has been all but eliminated with the cam change.

Point is, it can be misleading to only look at the the "maximum" amounts.  You need to consider the bigger picture.

That's exactly the point that Brad was trying to relay to me, (you said it much better than I did)

[syclone]

'dude, that is an important point that I was just getting ready to make after looking at the dyno sheet again.  If you only look at the peak TQ and HP gains (which is what is stated on the dyno sheet with the "max" figures), you might very well be underwhelmed with actually a 0.7 decrease in peak HP and just a 5.8 gain in TQ, but if you look at the gains in each throughout the RPM range on the graph, you see as much as about 5 HP gained and around 9 TQ, mostly across the board.  Plus, the (Rinehart induced?) dip in TQ between about 1,700 and 2500 rpm has been all but eliminated with the cam change.

Point is, it can be misleading to only look at the the "maximum" amounts.  You need to consider the bigger picture.

I agree with you 100%. I'm sure the old "butt dyno" will say its nice. the total area under the curve is much better. Just saying the "total package" on the bike of $2300.00 plus cam install labor for the average guy...just isnt impressive. Will wait to see the Zippers "package" before I decide. The tensioners have got to go though...if Zippers is no more impressive with just their bolt in cam... the Freedom cam  would be an excellent choice to have peace of mind along with the performance boost.
by the first of the year we'll be able to sort it all out..then maybe get some kind of group buy going.

[CVOJOE]

Excellent points 103 !We're all anxious to get more performance, reliability, and a reasonable per HP/FT LBS return on the $'s investment. Looking forward to the different offerings, probably in time for Xmas shopping.  8-)

[DCFIREMANN]

I agree with you 100%. I'm sure the old "butt dyno" will say its nice. the total area under the curve is much better. Just saying the "total package" on the bike of $2300.00 plus cam install labor for the average guy...just isnt impressive. Will wait to see the Zippers "package" before I decide. The tensioners have got to go though...if Zippers is no more impressive with just their bolt in cam... the Freedom cam  would be an excellent choice to have peace of mind along with the performance boost.
by the first of the year we'll be able to sort it all out..then maybe get some kind of group buy going.

I don't know what the Zippers price is going to be. I know that there is going to be different levels of performance to choose from. I do know that if I was going to go with a bolt in gear driven cam I would have gone with the Red Shift 557. I know it is a tq master. You can look at all of the others and I have but in a stock 103 I want to get as much AF mixture in the cylinders as possible. I would like to see a 557 put in a stock 103 just to see the numbers. I will make the call over to Zippers and if they want to use my pumpkin for this test it is OK with me. I have not touched the motor as of yet. It is still way to warm here in Maryland and it is nice to ride in the mountains this time of year with the weather as warm as it has been.

Be Safe

THE DAWG  

[Twolanerider]

Brian, Jim, et. al.,

Seeing the torque in a little earlier, even though total HP numbers weren't really different overall, was the single biggest improvement I saw.  Even if the total numbers were the same moving the curve earlier and closer to our driving RPM range is an improvement.  I'd also apparently misread your first post Jim as I'd thought the unit cost was $900 for just the cams.  Comparing that against the $600-ish price you can sometimes find on competitor's products also accounted for some of the underwhelmed response.

A competitive price, however, for a better (if not bigger) torque curve and the elimination of the cam shoes makes any product interesing and worth considering.  It's obviously not a panacea product release.  And it certainly seems worth waiting to see what the alternatives will be.  But it is interesting nonetheless.

[Twolanerider]

I would like to see a 557 put in a stock 103 just to see the numbers. I will make the call over to Zippers and if they want to use my pumpkin for this test it is OK with me. I have not touched the motor as of yet.
 

Dawg,
Having looked at the spec's on that cam I'd love to see that comparison as well.  If they're willing please advise as to the "when" and the outcome.

[syclone]

I don't know what the Zippers price is going to be. I know that there is going to be different levels of performance to choose from. I do know that if I was going to go with a bolt in gear driven cam I would have gone with the Red Shift 557. I know it is a tq master. You can look at all of the others and I have but in a stock 103 I want to get as much AF mixture in the cylinders as possible. I would like to see a 557 put in a stock 103 just to see the numbers. I will make the call over to Zippers and if they want to use my pumpkin for this test it is OK with me. I have not touched the motor as of yet. It is still way to warm here in Maryland and it is nice to ride in the mountains this time of year with the weather as warm as it has been.

Be Safe

THE DAWG  

Welllllll....then it goes without saying , we all hope it starts snowing there real soon in Maryland , and they take you up on the offer !!!!

[jeffj]

OK OK - I will be the Guinea Pig

Just got off the phone with Brad at Freedom Cycles and I have a appointment for
Tuesday Nov. 22 to have this process performed on my 2006 CUSE.

While visiting with Brad, he mentioned I will notice a big difference in HP & Torque in
all of the power range till it reaches the top. Brad said my bike will feel 100lbs lighter
(now if I would just loose a 100lbs it would fly) and be more responsive.

I am really excited about making this change and look forward to seeing and feeling
the results.

[Twolanerider]

Jeff,
Are you going in for just the cam swap or "the whole enchilada?"  That's a dandy Turkey Day present to give the Ultra.  Will be looking forward to your impressions before and after.

[jeffj]

Jeff,
Are you going in for just the cam swap or "the whole enchilada?"  That's a dandy Turkey Day present to give the Ultra.  Will be looking forward to your impressions before and after.

the whole enchilada