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[grc]

Jerry,
Seems here again we have a "quality" issue  or as you put it $$$ issue. It's not rocket science but shouldn't they know we pay good money for "inferior" product, then why wouldn't we pay more for a quality product out the door? I guess they are looking at numbers (how many bikes are in production with chain drive vs. how many have the failure), and when they don't have high enough failures they don't believe there is a problem. But if they would truly look at the numbers I would like to see how many bikes in production with chain drive, still have chain drive. One thing for sure is you can't have a chain drive/tensioner failure with gear drive cams. [smiley=confused5.gif] As you stated chain drive cams with better quality chain tensioners seem to work well on autos w/o failures, why can't we have them on our scooters?

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

Take a look at the tensioners in the attached illustration for one of my 4-wheel vehicles.  Then take a look at the tiny ones H-D uses.  May have something to do with the big difference in longevity, along with the quality of the material.  

Jerry

[syclone]

Take a look at the tensioners in the attached illustration for one of my 4-wheel vehicles.  Then take a look at the tiny ones H-D uses.  May have something to do with the big difference in longevity, along with the quality of the material.  

Jerry

I agree with Jerry 100%. Those tensioners are of a size that distributes the loading of the chain over about 8 inches of area..now put the same loading and unloading on a lenght 1/2 as long and the wear will no doubt double.  The automovive chains do have the benefit of much more equal/ gradual loading and unloading as in the case of a 4 valve 4 cylinder. Each cam is working 4 cylinders intake or exhasut valves , with different timing events so the chain "shock" is spread more evenly over 360 degrees of rotation...the "load-unload" is diluted.
So maybe the problem really is that our motors are just too small !!  LOL

[Fired00d]

Would the length of the chains determine length of tensioners? As your picture shows auto tensioners are quite large/long as is the chain. I would be interested to know the type of material they (auto) use in comparison to what MoCo uses. Also what the ratio of the chain length to tensioner length just to see if MoCo is in ballpark.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[syclone]

Would the length of the chains determine length of tensioners? As your picture shows auto tensioners are quite large/long as is the chain. I would be interested to know the type of material they (auto) use in comparison to what MoCo uses. Also what the ratio of the chain length to tensioner length just to see if MoCo is in ballpark.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

You want as much contact area as possible.. in the above cut-a way..you can see that if the chains were shorter..less slack ..there wouldnt be as much room for that size shoe in this application.  the closer you space the drive and driven gears...the less this becomes an option especially when counting on a spring loaded contant pressure tensioner.
We'll have to see how the new Dynas fare with their larger hydraulic controlled wear blocks. You can run more chain length, which gives you more slack and room for more contact area, when you can vary the pressure on the chain with a hydraulic plunger pushing on the shoe.

[spydglide]

wonder how much 'friction' there is in that it's 'constant pressure'?  Wouldn't it be a trade-off of maintaining control of the chain flex and rubbing off horsepower?  Or is the amt. of friction negligable?  This chit worries my little feeble mind.....'cause I can get to be a 'nervous nellie' over my mc.  [smiley=nervous.gif] har!  spyder

[grc]

You want as much contact area as possible.. in the above cut-a way..you can see that if the chains were shorter..less slack ..there wouldnt be as much room for that size shoe in this application.  the closer you space the drive and driven gears...the less this becomes an option especially when counting on a spring loaded contant pressure tensioner.
[highlight]We'll have to see how the new Dynas fare with their larger hydraulic controlled wear blocks. You can run more chain length, which gives you more slack and room for more contact area[/highlight], when you can vary the pressure on the chain with a hydraulic plunger pushing on the shoe.

Another example - look at the size of the new primary tensioner shoe on the '06 Dyna, versus the shoe on our bikes.  Almost covers the entire space from the crank sprocket to the clutch.

I still think the cam shoe problem is mostly a part quality issue, since I don't remember huge numbers of failures on the early TC88's.  The design is marginal, but something else seems to have changed.  [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Jerry

[syclone]

wonder how much 'friction' there is in that it's 'constant pressure'?  Wouldn't it be a trade-off of maintaining control of the chain flex and rubbing off horsepower?  Or is the amt. of friction negligable?  This chit worries my little feeble mind.....'cause I can get to be a 'nervous nellie' over my mc.  [smiley=nervous.gif] har!  spyder

Have no idea on the spring rating..they are very stiff.
Gear drive it. First thing done on my other bikes before they were broken in was motor work with gear drive cams.
As soon as Zippers have completed their packages for cvo heads the SEEG is gettin cams and or a package.

[DavidB]

Have no idea on the spring rating..they are very stiff.
Gear drive it. First thing done on my other bikes before they were broken in was motor work with gear drive cams.
As soon as Zippers have completed their packages for cvo heads the SEEG is gettin cams and or a package.

I agree,
  I just put a gear drive in a bike with 10,000 miles on it. The cam shoe had chunks out of it. The SEEG is next.

[reo]

Not surprising the moco just like most oem’s prefer chains vs gears, they say noise but cost is the most obvious. I remember the snowmobile manufactures switching from a contact button much like in our primary or on our cam chains to a steel roller to contact the slack side of the chain in their chaincase with a manual lock. I have also seen this combination in some cars. If your going to use chains seems like a better solution especially when the oil we use is required not to have friction modifiers.

[HUBBARD]

Yeah, 'er 'uh, Gentlemen,
  Rode down to Tilley's yesterday, to peer upon Ol' Maudie.  Just couldn't stand it!  Service was not open, so Neal was not there, and Tilley had just left for Florida.  Anyway, I took these pictures of the cam plate and tensioner shoes.  Also, notice the White deposits on the Piston tops.  Blue Fuel, I presume.  Later--HUBBARD

[HUBBARD]

Rear Tensioner Shoe-Notice Chunk in Chain

[HUBBARD]

Blue Fuel?

[HUBBARD]

Another Piston Shot

[hd-dude]

Hey Hub, How bad was the oil pump?

[Twolanerider]

Man oh man, you're gonna be cleaning on Maude for weeks when she gets home.....