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[FNGw/08SERK]

Didn't mean to set off such a stir. Thanks for clarifying. I did realize that the 54mm "HPI" TB was a modified SE 50mmTB that was enlarged/polished by HPI. I looked into other TB alternatives although no one made a 58mm electronic FBW TB other than HD so that's what I went with. At the time (Mid-Aug) I could find no data suggesting a better FBW TB alternative than the 58SE. And to be frank I still haven't seen any data suggesting there's a better alternative to the SE 58 TBW TB that's available today (although I stand ready to be corrected if such data exists). That's why I was looking for data from those suggesting alternatives to the SE 58.

The performance of your bike is outstanding and I wonder if there's any hope for my 110 achieving your kind of #s, particularly since  I'm sticking with a modified version of the the stock exhaust. I should be finding out later this week as my engine build is scheduled to be completed and dyno tuned by week's end.

2010 SEUC
Hillside 110 headwork (10.5comp)
Woods 408-6 cams
SE roller rockers
SE injectors (5.3 gms/sec)
SE Adj. Pushrods
SE 58mm TB
Ventilator A/C
Pro Super Tuner
Stock exhaust with cat removed and 2.25" Fullsac baffles

I can only hope to be at the same performance level as your build.

It's all good ... a little stirring of the pot is good fun once in a while. Let us know what you end up with. The boyz from Hillside are local and have a great reputation.

Howie

[jfh]

I later explained I felt this way because the HPI manifolds are better designed and flow better than a HD stock manifold...I have seen data to support this, but I do not have the data to share with the forum.  

I think all will agree that the HPI manifold will out perform the HD one. However, that is irrelevant for those of us with a FBW TB which is one-piece and does not benefit from the improved HPI manifold. As you noted, the question that remains is whether the HPI modified one-piece H-D 54 FBW TB will out perform the HD FBW 58mm.  I would think that HPI would have an answer. I'll let you know after I call them.

[ggraham45]

i had hillside take my 110 to a 117 with the 408-6 cams and i also had hpi bore out my tb to 54mm and i had it tuned by joes and he recommends going to the 58mm.he told me im not getting everything out of the build.it did dyno sae at 115hp and 135 tqjoe said that with the 58mm i should gain about 10 and 10 hp and tq.

[Hoist!]

I hear that! Only if I'm sure she's reliable. The gremlin thinks I'll give up and get a new bike, NEVER!

JW

Hey Jeff, FTR!!! It's over rated anyway! Never stopped me before!!!

BE THERE MAN!!!

Hoist!

[Hoist!]

Didn't mean to set off such a stir. Thanks for clarifying. I did realize that the 54mm "HPI" TB was a modified SE 50mmTB that was enlarged/polished by HPI. I looked into other TB alternatives although no one made a 58mm electronic FBW TB other than HD so that's what I went with. At the time (Mid-Aug) I could find no data suggesting a better FBW TB alternative than the 58SE. And to be frank I still haven't seen any data suggesting there's a better alternative to the SE 58 TBW TB that's available today (although I stand ready to be corrected if such data exists). That's why I was looking for data from those suggesting alternatives to the SE 58.

The performance of your bike is outstanding and I wonder if there's any hope for my 110 achieving your kind of #s, particularly since  I'm sticking with a modified version of the the stock exhaust. I should be finding out later this week as my engine build is scheduled to be completed and dyno tuned by week's end.

2010 SEUC
Hillside 110 headwork (10.5comp)
Woods 408-6 cams
SE roller rockers
SE injectors (5.3 gms/sec)
SE Adj. Pushrods
SE 58mm TB
Ventilator A/C
Pro Super Tuner
Stock exhaust with cat removed and 2.25" Fullsac baffles

I can only hope to be at the same performance level as your build.

If Scotty sets it up right, and I assume you're having Joe tunr it, you should see similar numbers. And let's not start a dyno wars discussion here now either.

Hoist!

Hoist!

[Hoist!]

My point exactly in my earlier post.
Your build sets the bar for what many of us are trying to achieve.
Good power and great dependability from our 110.
You are there, Hoist is very close and shooting the messenger does nothing to help the good message get out.


SBB




Sorry Hoist, you are probably closer than close but with a few more trips at Hoist speed we can call Cybil done!

Don't be sorry! It's been a rocky road for my baby. But I hung in and did what I had to. I think all's good now, but time will still be the real judge of that! But she's been running great, with ZERO engine issues. Plug wires, gas gauge, the usual BS! But the motor's been real strong and it's still not even tuned. You saw it run in GA, and nothing's been touched since either. Well, I did add a Rivera Pro Clutch to her! And I removed the SE Comp, but I think that's going back on when I return. I might even take dj's advice and put that ugly POS IDS on too!

Hoist!

[Black Diamond]

Hey Jeff, FTR!!! It's over rated anyway! Never stopped me before!!!

BE THERE MAN!!!

Hoist!

LOL! That's just not me! I'm thinking about switching back to the 58mm to see if the problem takes a hike.

Before this latest problem, Lexi would be hard to start once in every 15 to 20 times. With the 54mm on, she fires right up. Of course now she also turns herself off! What's up with dat!

JW

[Black Diamond]

i had hillside take my 110 to a 117 with the 408-6 cams and i also had hpi bore out my tb to 54mm and i had it tuned by joes and he recommends going to the 58mm.he told me im not getting everything out of the build.it did dyno sae at 115hp and 135 tqjoe said that with the 58mm i should gain about 10 and 10 hp and tq.

Gerald,

If I don't put the 58mm back on, I'd be willing to ship the 58mm to you for a quick switch and let Joe test his theory. All you'd have to invest in is shipping.

Also thanks for the info (PM)

JW

[Heatwave]

If Scotty sets it up right, and I assume you're having Joe tunr it, you should see similar numbers. And let's not start a dyno wars discussion here now either.

Hoist!

Hoist!

I spoke at length with Joe and had alot of confidence in his expertise in EFI tuning based on my multiple discussions. Unfortunately its just abit too far to ride the bike up to Hillside and then over to Joe for dyno tuning from where I live. My HD dealer offered 20% off on all the parts I bought through them and discounted all the labor for doing the build. I sent the heads out to Hillside for Scott to work his magic and the head pipe to Steve at Fullsac to clean out the cat.

Under the circumstances and after spending alot of time with the HD wrench that will be handling my build and dyno tune, I decided to go with the dealer for the EFI tuning. I would have preferred to go with Joe but the offer at the dealer was persuasive. I hope I made the right decision. Worst case...I get the bike to Joe for a dyno tune this winter if I'm not satisfied with the tuning by the dealership.

[jfh]

I called HPI and asked about performance increases between the stock SE 58mm compared to their H-D 50mm to 54mm modification. They said performance was equal and both are limited by the design of the runners. They are still working on a FBW product of their own and advised that I keep my stock SE 58mm until theirs is ready. I would have gone with the HPI mod to my 50mm if I had been aware of the option at the time I purchased my SE-58.

[Black Diamond]

I called HPI and asked about performance increases between the stock SE 58mm compared to their H-D 50mm to 54mm modification. They said performance was equal and both are limited by the design of the runners. They are still working on a FBW product of their own and advised that I keep my stock SE 58mm until theirs is ready. I would have gone with the HPI mod to my 50mm if I had been aware of the option at the time I purchased my SE-58.

That's the whole reason for this thread, to let others know about options that are out there now vs when I did my build almost 2 years ago.

JW

[HD Street Performance]

My original question for data was directed at those that were claiming that a 50 SE ported and polished up to a 54mm TB would perform better than an SE58mm TB

Well what if the data doesn't support the real world testing?
I have been testing the FBW TBs on both the bench, road and dyno and the 58 is the airflow winner but the ported stocker provides a better feel, and more midrange torque and just about the same on top. The port outlet on the 58 is bigger too and exceeds the size of the head port, so much so that it needs bigger flanges and special seals. Not good and not needed.
Understand that anyone who ports these TBs is constrained to what is practical to do. You are dealt the cards, this casting, and it is thin and too big in places and too small in others. Welding is not practical, so all that can be done is smooth them and put the 54 in and call it a day with a 12% + or - increase in gross flow on the flow bench. The Throttle blade is not always the restriction or constraint to performance. Plenum volume and shape count A LOT. If bigger was better then a long time ago we would have seen plenums the size of coffee cans. Ever wonder why the older two piece TBs worked so well with a much smaller throttle? SE / HD is on this big everything kick now and really a 110 motor tuned for maximum efficiency and a peak HP at about 5,500 only needs so much air. The smallest manifold and throttle that can deliver that with a slight margin for growth along with the proper shape will provide the best velocity. Velocity does matter. There are factions that say it does not on these EFI motors. Well I have tested back to back and am here to tell you the airflow winner may not be the one that gets the happy owner, and requires a lot more use of the left foot while riding.
In Deweys words "big hole Lo FLO"
So you guys that want the fun to ride big heavy bikes with tall gearing. Pump the torque up where you ride most of the time for a fun enjoyable ride and remember the dyno sheets are just a snapshot of what the bike does on a dyno when wacked at 2,000 rpm to redline. Not that closely related to how we ride on the street and the "pass a truck" scenarios. Be sure to match the components and not have any one component that literally runs right out the back door. That could be a TB, head package, pipe, or cam and any combination of those parts that are sized wrong for the intended goal. Understand that this 110 is different than a typical 88 / 95, specifically the heads are large to begin with and selection of these components is more critical as that torque we all want can head into the dumpster in a hurry with a component(s) mistake.
Tuning is also very important. Dynojet now has adapters to use the O2 ports for precise AFR adjustments. Much better method than the pipes and toggling between cylinders is so much easier.
I digress, sorry

[Black Diamond]

My original question for data was directed at those that were claiming that a 50 SE ported and polished up to a 54mm TB would perform better than an SE58mm TB

Well what if the data doesn't support the real world testing?
I have been testing the FBW TBs on both the bench, road and dyno and the 58 is the airflow winner but the ported stocker provides a better feel, and more midrange torque and just about the same on top. The port outlet on the 58 is bigger too and exceeds the size of the head port, so much so that it needs bigger flanges and special seals. Not good and not needed.
Understand that anyone who ports these TBs is constrained to what is practical to do. You are dealt the cards, this casting, and it is thin and too big in places and too small in others. Welding is not practical, so all that can be done is smooth them and put the 54 in and call it a day with a 12% + or - increase in gross flow on the flow bench. The Throttle blade is not always the restriction or constraint to performance. Plenum volume and shape count A LOT. If bigger was better then a long time ago we would have seen plenums the size of coffee cans. Ever wonder why the older two piece TBs worked so well with a much smaller throttle? SE / HD is on this big everything kick now and really a 110 motor tuned for maximum efficiency and a peak HP at about 5,500 only needs so much air. The smallest manifold and throttle that can deliver that with a slight margin for growth along with the proper shape will provide the best velocity. Velocity does matter. There are factions that say it does not on these EFI motors. Well I have tested back to back and am here to tell you the airflow winner may not be the one that gets the happy owner, and requires a lot more use of the left foot while riding.
In Deweys words "big hole Lo FLO"
So you guys that want the fun to ride big heavy bikes with tall gearing. Pump the torque up where you ride most of the time for a fun enjoyable ride and remember the dyno sheets are just a snapshot of what the bike does on a dyno when wacked at 2,000 rpm to redline. Not that closely related to how we ride on the street and the "pass a truck" scenarios. Be sure to match the components and not have any one component that literally runs right out the back door. That could be a TB, head package, pipe, or cam and any combination of those parts that are sized wrong for the intended goal. Understand that this 110 is different than a typical 88 / 95, specifically the heads are large to begin with and selection of these components is more critical as that torque we all want can head into the dumpster in a hurry with a component(s) mistake.
Tuning is also very important. Dynojet now has adapters to use the O2 ports for precise AFR adjustments. Much better method than the pipes and toggling between cylinders is so much easier.
I digress, sorry

Great post

JW

[Heatwave]

My original question for data was directed at those that were claiming that a 50 SE ported and polished up to a 54mm TB would perform better than an SE58mm TB

Well what if the data doesn't support the real world testing?
I have been testing the FBW TBs on both the bench, road and dyno and the 58 is the airflow winner but the ported stocker provides a better feel, and more midrange torque and just about the same on top. The port outlet on the 58 is bigger too and exceeds the size of the head port, so much so that it needs bigger flanges and special seals. Not good and not needed.
Understand that anyone who ports these TBs is constrained to what is practical to do. You are dealt the cards, this casting, and it is thin and too big in places and too small in others. Welding is not practical, so all that can be done is smooth them and put the 54 in and call it a day with a 12% + or - increase in gross flow on the flow bench. The Throttle blade is not always the restriction or constraint to performance. Plenum volume and shape count A LOT. If bigger was better then a long time ago we would have seen plenums the size of coffee cans. Ever wonder why the older two piece TBs worked so well with a much smaller throttle? SE / HD is on this big everything kick now and really a 110 motor tuned for maximum efficiency and a peak HP at about 5,500 only needs so much air. The smallest manifold and throttle that can deliver that with a slight margin for growth along with the proper shape will provide the best velocity. Velocity does matter. There are factions that say it does not on these EFI motors. Well I have tested back to back and am here to tell you the airflow winner may not be the one that gets the happy owner, and requires a lot more use of the left foot while riding.
In Deweys words "big hole Lo FLO"
So you guys that want the fun to ride big heavy bikes with tall gearing. Pump the torque up where you ride most of the time for a fun enjoyable ride and remember the dyno sheets are just a snapshot of what the bike does on a dyno when wacked at 2,000 rpm to redline. Not that closely related to how we ride on the street and the "pass a truck" scenarios. Be sure to match the components and not have any one component that literally runs right out the back door. That could be a TB, head package, pipe, or cam and any combination of those parts that are sized wrong for the intended goal. Understand that this 110 is different than a typical 88 / 95, specifically the heads are large to begin with and selection of these components is more critical as that torque we all want can head into the dumpster in a hurry with a component(s) mistake.
Tuning is also very important. Dynojet now has adapters to use the O2 ports for precise AFR adjustments. Much better method than the pipes and toggling between cylinders is so much easier.
I digress, sorry

I agree with everything above however how did you rule out the tuning of the bike that resulted in the "ported stocker provides a better feel, and more midrange torque and just about the same on top end"? It would seem that if the 58mm flows better on the bench and you're using the same heads and cams, the difference in performance could be in the overall tuning that didn't fully maximize the 58mm OR it could be that the engine really couldn't make full use of the better flowing 58mm.

I don't want to unneccesaily stir things up again however isn't it possible that the difference in "seat" performance could have been related to tuning?

[Hoist!]

I found that the way the stock 110 heads are setup with them big valves, that everything else big gets the velocity up as needed. Found this thru dyno testing many different components and combinations. This thing needs gobs of flow and responds excellent when you give it that. Big Bore FC and a 62mm HPI works fantastic with the stock 110 valve sizes (ported and flowed heads) and about 1/2 extra point of CR with S&S 585 cams! At least it does on mine!

Hoist!