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[kraut]

@Steve:

my device (Super tuner, Hardware of July 09, last software update April 10) records 3x15 min, the logger needs to be connected to and powered by the bike to read the memory.

For logging-runs the lambda-correction memory should be cleared and the factory settings for AFR-optimization disabled. The software will show a nice disclaimer: "not for street use!!!" 

If you have an open road with almost no traffic on two or more lanes and no speed limit as easily provided by German "Autobahn" you can get quite a lot of significant data collected following a scheme of accelerating, decelarating and constant speed in the various areas. The changes the smarttune gimmick proposes are shown for each cell and can be approved or cancelled for each.

After I "lost" my cat this spring I did 2 consecutive sequences of 3x15 min on "Autobahn". After the second run the canges proposed were minimal. To be sure I did a 3rd sequence of 3x15 min with "regular" riding situations (15 min each city, backroad, Autobahn): almost no changes proposed.

The result may not be equal to a qualified engineers dyno results but good enough for me. The bike was hesitant between 2.700 and 3.000 Rpm with the factory map, showed decel-popping and got so hot the rear cylinder shut off at every second redlight. Those issues disappeared completely already after the first run and now I'm perfectly happy how the bike performs (actually for the first time since my old stage II of 2002) 

The really nice thing is you can mail your logs to your tuner and discuss the changes over the phone - that's electronic age at it's best 

[dep47]

  Ok had the V&H true duals installed with the Monster Ovals,  Arlen Ness AC, and PC, then Dyoned.  Result on the dyno were 109 Ft# torque, and 93 HP.  Bike runs great, no problems.  Mufflers are a little louder then I wanted, but the set up looks awesome.   Not sure how much the fuel economy will be affected yet, been to busy cranking the throttle to even worry about it .  The throttle lag is gone as is the performance dip around 2000 RPM that was there from the factory. It just jumps up to 90 MPH and will do lots more in 6th gear.  Feels like I had shifted into 4th prior to the tune.

[Steve Cole]

I'm glad your happy with your purchase Kraut. That said, sure seems funny that TTS makes Vtune and bring it to market in 2008 then a year later HD brings out smart tune.  Make no mistake that they are the same as they are not event close and maybe there newest version is getting better. When it comes to tuning I would rather have the ability to adjust things and not need them than need to and not be able to adjust them. If you look at the features of Mastertune and compare to the SESPT it not event close to the same.

[HOGMIKE]

Sometimes you get lucky.
I have 2 members here both on '08 RK. One stock, one with a PC.
The stock bike NEVER ran clean nor did it have enough power to keep up with the pack on road trips.
Needless to say the owner was pissed. He had it in the dealer many times and was told "they all run like that, we find nothing wrong"
Dealer "forgot" to check a recall to his ECM that was NOT performed!! It ran pretty good after that, but, he traded it in for a '10 FLHTK 103.
New bike is miles better than the '08. He will ride MY '10 103 SOON and I know he will feel the difference in both the ride and performance!
Other rider has just the PC installed, no dyno tune or anything and is satisfied with the performance. He can't keep up with mine on the freeway on-ramps, though! LOL
I think he's afraid to ride mine, even when I offered.
Bottom line: until you ride a great running bike you really don't know what you're missing. Dyno numbers are not always the best behaving rides, IMO.

Just some observations with some of our members' bikes. We mostly have baggers.
 

[Wheelsnkeels]

Anybody installed the Thundermax ECM W/ Autotune on an SESG or Ultra yet? This looks to be a nice offering for those doing their own mod's.

I've read some reports so far it sounds to be a promising product. Similar to the PCV w/Autotune except takes up much less space and is even simpler to install.

The PCV is pretty easy already so thats saying something.

[kraut]

@Steve,

I'm glad your happy with your purchase Kraut. That said, sure seems funny that TTS makes Vtune and bring it to market in 2008 then a year later HD brings out smart tune.  Make no mistake that they are the same as they are not event close and maybe there newest version is getting better. When it comes to tuning I would rather have the ability to adjust things and not need them than need to and not be able to adjust them. If you look at the features of Mastertune and compare to the SESPT it not event close to the same.

I don't know who introduced what first or whose product may be superior - I leave those questions to the engineers.

The present version of H-D's Supertuner with Smarttune works for me - that's all I can say and all I said in my posting.

Your TTS Mastertune may be a very valuable alternative or even the better choice in USA or CA - but it's virtually terra incognita in Europe. No European tuner of any reputation uses it, nobody will offer you any assistance whatsoever over here. And using it will void the H-D warranty with no dealer stepping in instead. With Direct Link or PC you will at least find some reputable shops over here who give you a warranty for their tuning.

So in Europe it's either PC, Supertuner, Direct Link or live what the factory sees fit to deliver - at least as long as your bike is under warranty. TTS is nice to know about but more of a fairy tale from a foreign country far away 

Sometimes the little pond between our islands can make quite a difference 

[Steve Cole]

Well I guess we will have to work harder in Europe. We have several dealers there using our products and a warehouse in Germany so far. Anyone who has ever used a Race Tuner has used our product as that was the name on it when it was sold through the HD network of dealerships worldwide, so there are many that have been using it for along time. As for the warranty part of things, it may be different in Europe but here in the USA, Japan and many other countries as soon as a Race product is installed it's no longer covered and it doesn't matter if it's sold through HD or not. Event when our product was sold through HD it was not a warranty item, so I would be very surprised if the new unit from SPX is really covered. I think the dealer is just trying to use that a sales tool but when it comes down to a warranty issue you will be in trouble.

[kraut]

legal situation is indeed quite different over here.

According to EC consumer laws parts may be labelled however a manufacturer pleases - if sold new from a manufacturer or importer to a consumer they have to work flawlessly for 2 years. In case of doubt the manufacturer or importer has to prove the cause of a failure was a faulty operation of the consumer.

H-D learned that little difference the hard way 

[Steve Cole]

I'm not sure how that would effect the bike warranty. If the Tuner of choice works fine all is good but if the person using it screws up by tuning improperly I doubt that would be covered. So how could a HD dealer say use ours and it's OK but not another product that works in the same fashion. HD tried that one over here and they learned that one the hard way too!

[guppytrash]

I am so confused- Please can someone give me some recommendations
Everyone I talk to tells me something else
I just want the bike to not run like a wash machine
I almost have 1,000 miles as soon as I do the first service at Harley I want to change Exhaust to either Bassani or Rinehart 2 into 1
Change the air filter to a high performance and do either the race tuner, power commander or Accelel SLM but everyone I speak to tells me something different. Please any advise would be greatly appreciate.  I have two other carb bikes that have some work done that run great.
Thanks

Java
Back to the original question....
If the Thundermax with autotune had been available when I was buying I would have definitely bought that.  (and after $800 on SSERT & dyno I probably am still going to buy it)
I have the SSERT and while it is very capable it is limited buy the need of a dyno and a good tuner all costing $300-$400 and up each time.  Good luck with finding a good tuner most HD shops are good at telling you how good there guy is and at taking your money.
Thundermax with autotune is just under a grand and that seems expensive until you go to a tuner the second time. 
Change cams, $300-$400 more.  Change exhaust $300-$400 again.
PC -V has an autotune also and there are a few here who have used that and I have not seen one bad write up from those who are using it.
TTS has v-tune and Steve "TTS" Cole is available right here as you can see.  You won't find that support with any of the other brands. 
If you do buy a tuner that does not have an autotune feature IMHOP it is not nearly as important what brand tuner, but how good the guy using it is.

Good Luck!

[kraut]

@Steve:

we are getting a little off-topic I'm afraid 

It works the other way round: if you have a casualty, it will be a mechanical failure, some parts will have suffered. H-D ( their respective national importer that is) is liable under EC consumer laws for everything they sell in the EC through their dealer-network to last out at least those 2 years of compulsive warranty. Same applies for any work of any of their official dealers using H-D parts and H-D approved software/routines, so if a dealer fouls up tuning a bike built 100% of H-D or H-D approved parts using H-D approved software both dealer and importer are fully liable and have to prove any other causes they may claim to be responsible. So if the official dealer makes even the most evident and stupid mistake building and/or tuning a bike you are on the safe side as to warranty. As long as each and every change done on the maps is documented (by e-mail for instance) as beeing checked and approved by the dealer prior to implementation there is no way out of it for H-D if the engine gives up within those 2 years.

If a dealer (or any other shop) agrees to use any third party parts or software it will be much easier for H-D to prove a failure not to be their fault because their approved routines were neglected and it will be just between you and the dealer (or whoever did the mods). Of course you are still not entirely out of the game as you still have the chance to prove that the cause of a failure was not the third party tuner but any faulty H-D part - but it will be ever so much more difficult and costly. You will be left at the mercy of some so called experts the court assigns - and keep in mind H-Ds over here are not as common as they are in USA, expertise about H-D's is comparatively rare in Europe.

So at the rate H-D dealers and motorcycle shops give up business over here nowadays it's not really desirable to be depending on their liability alone.

Litigation is my business and believe me - I know what I'm talking about 

[Badger Mike]

Just put the PCV w/ Auto tune on my '10 SERG.  Running with V&H dresser duals and Hi Output Slip Ons.  The bike seems to be running fine, and was installed by a well respected mechanic.  He does not feel that the bike needs to be put on the dyno; that he can adjust the map to get the bike to run best without it.  Does that make sense?

Also, had the bike into the dealer today to have them look at an issue with the cruise control cutting out.  They ran the DTC and it came up with a P0031 fault code (o2 sensors low/open), then gave "the warranty talk". 

Anyone have any ideas for solving the fault code?

[Wheelsnkeels]

Yes that's the point of "Auto tune" Even at the DynoJet training I attended (manufacturers of both the Dyno's and Power Commander) They told us with Auto tune there isn't any need for a Dyno. A Dyno would establish the adjustments more quickly than riding. Thats about the only benefit as the device not the Dyno tech will be making the adjustments

[Diamondback]

 

I agree completely.  had my PC V with autotune for over 12000 on the current CVO and after about 9000 miles had a $50 special "dyno" run to see where it was.  Didn't want to do it because I liked the way the bike ran.  Great power, lower heat and excellent gas mileage.  But anyway, reutable tuner ran the test at 82degrees on a humid day, 96hp and 11ft-lbs of torque.  Broad flat torque curve which is what I like (makes for eaier driveability). 

Tuner said he could get a little more "umph" but the cost wouldn't justify the increase.

Left it alone.

recently cleaned my K&N air filter after 12000 and was suprised at how dirty it was.  Bike ran better after the clean.

 

[grc]

Just put the PCV w/ Auto tune on my '10 SERG.  Running with V&H dresser duals and Hi Output Slip Ons.  The bike seems to be running fine, and was installed by a well respected mechanic.  He does not feel that the bike needs to be put on the dyno; that he can adjust the map to get the bike to run best without it.  Does that make sense?

Also, had the bike into the dealer today to have them look at an issue with the cruise control cutting out.  They ran the DTC and it came up with a P0031 fault code (o2 sensors low/open), then gave "the warranty talk".  

Anyone have any ideas for solving the fault code?

First, the O² sensor open code is due to the fact that the O² sensors are disconnected from the stock harness.  It shows up as a historical code, but I don't believe it keeps the check engine light on ( ).  I don't know of a simple way to eliminate that code, short of reconnecting the sensors.  What does DynoJet have to say about this subject?

Second, did the dealer fix your cruise control, or just blow you off after they found the code?  The two aren't related, and plenty of folks with PCV's are using their cruise on a daily basis.

Third, if you have the time and patience to build a base map using just the auto tune, you can do so without a dyno.  The dyno just makes development of a good base map a lot quicker.  And even though these things are called auto tune (all the various brands), they still need a good base map to work best.  And be aware that "autotune" doesn't fix the stock ignition timing issues; it makes no timing changes.


Jerry