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[J-Carr]

The management of a publicly held compamy has only one responsibility-Maximize stockholder value.  the stockholders are the owners of the company and they are the people management has to answer to.  You can't blame Harley managment for taking government money when the Obama administration is throwing it all around.  Harley mangement would be derelict in their responsibilities if they didn't.  And I'm tired of hearing union members in general claim they have a "right" to share in the profits of a company.  They weren't there risking their life savings or putting their futures on the line in a number of cases in order to start a company.  With the risks come the rewards.  Workers agreed to a contract for a certain number of years at alot of companies, and most of them don't want anything longer than 2 or 3 years.  When economic conditions change, what's wrong with everybody sacrificing.  Why do wages only go up, even in bad times.  Here in Wichita, Spirit Aerosystems (formerly Boeing) shoved a 10 year contract down the unions throat.  Was it a good decision on either side?--I don't know.  Only time will tell.   Cessna employees vote Saturday on a similar contract.  I think they're going to turn it down and strike.  Usually the strike lasts just past the break even point of where the company will give the employees what they want, but because they were off 6-8 weeks, the company still spends less money overall.  Kind of funny.  For years around here the aircraft workers had great health insurance, at no cost.  I remember about 6 years ago or so when Boeing told the union that the workers were going to have to start paying 25 % of the premium cost.  They were all screaming like a stuck pig about how they were being screwed and they were gonna strike over it.  I told them they needed a dose of reality, most of the real world considered it to be a good perk if a company offered to pay half of your premium.  They were so spoiled.  Okay, I know this rant is gonna get me in trouble--fire away!!

Nope.  I won't argue with you.  I don't like that what you've said is true but I won't bury my head in the sand and pretend otherwise.  Wandell is a jerk.  I've come to believe that all CEOs are.  But he is doing his job.  He's not worth the money they pay him, but that's the going rate.  Same as pro atheletes.  No one deserves more money for throwing a ball then saving a life, but that's the reality.  And we all love to bitch, but we still watch sports and buy harleys.  And we're not above doing what's best for ourselves just as the CEO screws the little guys when they can.  How many on this site go buy from Jenni because she gives a better price then the local guy?  Why not buck up and pay more to support the local shop and keep those local parts guys employed? (yeah, i'm sure everyone is only doing it becasue of Jenni's customer service which I hear is beyond reproach)

So now everone will have to decide who to yell at first. 

Ride Safe,
JC

[grc]

.................................And I'm tired of hearing union members in general claim they have a "right" to share in the profits of a company.  They weren't there risking their life savings or putting their futures on the line in a number of cases in order to start a company.  .........................................

Well, maybe that argument could hold a little water if Mr. Davidson and Mr. Harley were still around, but I don't think any of the current members of management or the board of directors put up one nickel of their own or risked anything more than a sore butt from sitting around doing nothing all day and collecting nice fat checks.  And unless we as a nation decide to repeal the thirteenth amendment and bring back slavery, the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work.  If the system were fair, and the greed at the top removed, ideally we could have shared risk and reward.  But when the top dogs demand all of the goodies and push all the sacrifice down to the bottom, shared risk and reward is nothing more than a joke.  Let's see, the CEO gets a $6M bonus for eliminating thousands of jobs after six months, and half the workforce gets an unemployment check and threats about moving their jobs elsewhere.  Show me the shared risk and reward.

It's not going to change easily, now that the ME generation has so thoroughly screwed up the corporate and political world, but there will come a time when the folks at the bottom will rise up.  You can't give the people a taste of middle class status for decades and then pull the rug out from under them without expecting some backlash.  But certain people in this country won't be satisfied until 80% of the population is poor and beholden to the annointed ones for any crumbs they might throw out.  Sort of like a certain bunch of clowns who want to eliminate unemployment insurance and medicare and social security.  Lot's more really cheap labor for them to abuse when you eliminate the safety net.  Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest.


Jerry

[Ultra2010]

Well, maybe that argument could hold a little water if Mr. Davidson and Mr. Harley were still around, but I don't think any of the current members of management or the board of directors put up one nickel of their own or risked anything more than a sore butt from sitting around doing nothing all day and collecting nice fat checks.  And unless we as a nation decide to repeal the thirteenth amendment and bring back slavery, the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work.  If the system were fair, and the greed at the top removed, ideally we could have shared risk and reward.  But when the top dogs demand all of the goodies and push all the sacrifice down to the bottom, shared risk and reward is nothing more than a joke.  Let's see, the CEO gets a $6M bonus for eliminating thousands of jobs after six months, and half the workforce gets an unemployment check and threats about moving their jobs elsewhere.  Show me the shared risk and reward.

It's not going to change easily, now that the ME generation has so thoroughly screwed up the corporate and political world, but there will come a time when the folks at the bottom will rise up.  You can't give the people a taste of middle class status for decades and then pull the rug out from under them without expecting some backlash.  But certain people in this country won't be satisfied until 80% of the population is poor and beholden to the annointed ones for any crumbs they might throw out.  Sort of like a certain bunch of clowns who want to eliminate unemployment insurance and medicare and social security.  Lot's more really cheap labor for them to abuse when you eliminate the safety net.  Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest.


Jerry

I'll continue to buy their product only as long as the quality is there and I can depend on it! I don't care who gets what at the MOCO, the haves and have nots will always be, I can't change a damn thing there. . I like to ride, that is first and foremost to me, if the MOCO starts declining (more) in their quality, then I'm on a Goldwing or a BMW.

[iski]

The shared risk by upper mgt., from a publicly held company such as HD is, comes in the form of stock compensation.  Very common for bonuses & portions of compensation packages for upper mgt. to be "paid for" by a set number of shares of the company's stock.  If that stock goes up, the upper mgt. makes more $$, and if it goes in the dumper, they make diddly.  So it is in their best interest, financially, for a company to do well.  That's the reason that boards offer top execs company stock as bonus/slary packages - to insure the company does well.  Of course this only works as long as a company is well managed & it's product line does well, and it makes a PROFIT.  Without a profit, given enough time, the company itself goes in the dumpster which is bad for top execs, middle mgt. & line employees. It's all about sales & profits & the products/services needed to ensure same.  

Not sure if HD execs have stock options & frankly not going to invest the time to find out.  My bike is running ok & I wish gas was $.29 a gallon like it used to be. 

[Keats]

Well, maybe that argument could hold a little water if Mr. Davidson and Mr. Harley were still around, but I don't think any of the current members of management or the board of directors put up one nickel of their own or risked anything more than a sore butt from sitting around doing nothing all day and collecting nice fat checks.  And unless we as a nation decide to repeal the thirteenth amendment and bring back slavery, the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work.  If the system were fair, and the greed at the top removed, ideally we could have shared risk and reward.  But when the top dogs demand all of the goodies and push all the sacrifice down to the bottom, shared risk and reward is nothing more than a joke.  Let's see, the CEO gets a $6M bonus for eliminating thousands of jobs after six months, and half the workforce gets an unemployment check and threats about moving their jobs elsewhere.  Show me the shared risk and reward.

It's not going to change easily, now that the ME generation has so thoroughly screwed up the corporate and political world, but there will come a time when the folks at the bottom will rise up.  You can't give the people a taste of middle class status for decades and then pull the rug out from under them without expecting some backlash.  But certain people in this country won't be satisfied until 80% of the population is poor and beholden to the annointed ones for any crumbs they might throw out.  Sort of like a certain bunch of clowns who want to eliminate unemployment insurance and medicare and social security.  Lot's more really cheap labor for them to abuse when you eliminate the safety net.  Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest.


Jerry

I basically disagree with you Jerry.

"the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work"  That implies that people other than those working on the line do not actually work......

"the people who do the actual work definintely should share in the profits from that work"  They do, it is called a paycheck...

I like to read your posts generally, up and till you get on the anarchist bandwagon.
If you want to get payed more than a production employee, you have to make yourself more valuable than a production employee.
If your are valuable, you will be paid well.
If you can be replaced by a HS drop out, then your pay will be low.

A lesson that is better learned young than older.

[grc]

..................................
I like to read your posts generally, up and till you get on the anarchist bandwagon.
..................................

Come on man, I know I can legitimately be called a lot of things, but an anarchist?  I don't remember advocating the violent overthrow of any government or other institutions.  Sheesh! 

I didn't mean to imply that I advocated or promoted the uprising of the downtrodden, I just meant to point out that it is a natural reaction when people believe they have been disenfranchised.  I personally remember the riots back in the 1960's, and the number of people involved was nothing compared to what I believe could be the next big uprising.  People tend to be funny about certain things; for instance take away their jobs and their homes and their ability to provide for themselves and their loved ones, and they tend to get highly upset.  And with the trends I've seen over the past couple decades, and especially in the past few years, I see a big problem coming.  Not advocating anything, just observing and commenting. 


Jerry

[Keats]

Maybe I just mis understood this.........

"Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest."

That doesn't sound very passive. It has a anarchist flavor to it.



look into    "Maslow's hierarchy of needs"

[hard10]

Maybe I just mis understood this.........

"Well, to those folks and those who agree with them, I'd suggest they make sure their fire insurance is paid up and it covers civil unrest."

That doesn't sound very passive. It has a anarchist flavor to it.



look into    "Maslow's hierarchy of needs"

Thank you.

[CVORick]

NO!  Thank You!!!  We are still talking about Harley aren't we?  Wow, so much discussion and no solution.........

[skreminegul07]

I see three groups of people in the US.  The average worker (fourth group would be the non working class), the Wall Street type, and our current leadership.
Out Progressive leaders (while billionaires themselves) demonize the executives in the private sector.  Rich sports figures and celebrities are left alone.  While demonizing the other rich, they increase entitlements and benefits for the working class (healthcare, extended unemployment).  Our leaders are pitting the two groups against each other to build up their power.  People, it's a solid plan already seen successful in history: Germany in the 30's (demonized the business owners who were mostly one race),  Russia (Lenin and Stalin), Cuba and Castro.
Create chaos and class warfare then take over and form a new government.  We now have 40 Czars in the White House.  How many in the Kremlin?























Read your history.

[FNGw/08SERK]

I see three groups of people in the US.  The average worker (fourth group would be the non working class), the Wall Street type, and our current leadership.
Out Progressive leaders (while billionaires themselves) demonize the executives in the private sector.  Rich sports figures and celebrities are left alone.  While demonizing the other rich, they increase entitlements and benefits for the working class (healthcare, extended unemployment).  Our leaders are pitting the two groups against each other to build up their power.  People, it's a solid plan already seen successful in history: Germany in the 30's (demonized the business owners who were mostly one race),  Russia (Lenin and Stalin), Cuba and Castro.
Create chaos and class warfare then take over and form a new government.  We now have 40 Czars in the White House.  How many in the Kremlin?























Read your history.

http://cloward-piven.com/

[Chains]

I don't know how the management of Harley does it, but whenever i have had to lay off or cut employees the first thing I did was stop taking a pay check myself, kind of hard to go out on the floor and tell someone you are cutting their hours or laying them off when you have not felt the pain yourself.  I have always felt if I had to lay off people I let them down, especially hen they bust there butt everyday.  Now firing someone is a different story if they deserve it.

Maybe MOCO needs to get back to being down to earth and feel the pain at the top first and then work there way down, works for me.

[grandpadoc]

I don't know how the management of Harley does it, but whenever i have had to lay off or cut employees the first thing I did was stop taking a pay check myself, kind of hard to go out on the floor and tell someone you are cutting their hours or laying them off when you have not felt the pain yourself.  I have always felt if I had to lay off people I let them down, especially hen they bust there butt everyday.  Now firing someone is a different story if they deserve it.

Maybe MOCO needs to get back to being down to earth and feel the pain at the top first and then work there way down, works for me.

Ultimately its the stockholders that demand a paycheck and the people they put in place make it happen. Its all about U/U profits...sell more bikes, lay off people, get parts from China or Japan, close dealers, increase productivity (more production with fewer employees)...its been the plight of many american companies that are no longer with us. As a small business owner for over 40 years I have settled for years of no growth in income during hard times, but when you go public its grow or die.  Doc

[Keats]

Ultimately its the stockholders that demand a paycheck and the people they put in place make it happen. Its all about U/U profits...sell more bikes, lay off people, get parts from China or Japan, close dealers, increase productivity (more production with fewer employees)...its been the plight of many American companies that are no longer with us. As a small business owner for over 40 years I have settled for years of no growth in income during hard times, but when you go public its grow or die.  Doc

I completely agree, I now have to ability to accept less income to keep my people going.
(I cannot do that forever)
If I had to answer to board members, I would be gone.

That is the reason that I like private companies over publicly traded companies.
They at least have the ability to make that decision.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I
If you want to get payed more than a production employee, you have to make yourself more valuable than a production employee.
If your are valuable, you will be paid well.
If you can be replaced by a HS drop out, then your pay will be low.

A lesson that is better learned young than older


[/b]

I fully agree.

I see many at work complaining because their hourly wage is much less than mine, and they do not get retention bonus.  I always tell them, you do not have a skill set that management can not replace in one day if you quit.  Most are HS grads or drop outs and feel they should earn what the highly trained technical people earn an hour.  It usually takes them 3 or four months to find a good Electronics tech with PLC and machine automation back grounds.