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[kiwi]

Bought a SERK3 and decided to do some motor work when the motor was stripped for a recall, whoops I mean engine enhancement program the Mo co wanted done. Discussed it with the Dealership and I followed Ghostriders build pretty much. Went to 10.5 compression, 251 cams, 51mm TB, and two into one exhaust system SERT heavy breather etc. I rode it out of the Dealership and back to my home town which is a ride of approx 1.5 hours. I rode straight to the bike club. When I got off the bike one of the guys commented about the little puffs of blue smoke coming from my exhaust as I came into the driveway. I thought he was taking the piss out of me BUT HE WAS NOT. Back to the Dealership for a please explain. Some weeks later I am told the Mo co had a bad batch of rings and so it will be re-honed and new rings fitted to both cylinders. Work was completed and I went through the running in process being very careful to do it right. Had the first oil change and then went on a trip to the South Island and back covering around 1500 kms. Cleaned the bike and checked the oil. NONE on the dip stick. Thought that they must have screwed up at the dealership. Called and told them the story. They said they wanted to come and pick the bike up and run some tests on it. Did that and told me everything appears to be fine. Compression and leak down tests were fine they said. Asked me to monitor the oil use and report back to them.  Next trip was a couple of weeks riding around the South Island. We did just on 5000kms and used 3 quarts of syn3  oil.  No smoke or smell to the engine or exhaust. No oil around the breather or any leaks of any kind. No oil under the bike or on it.
Dealer says it could be blow-by and so they would like to run more tests because that amount of oil use is like the old joke where you go into the service station and ask to have the oil filled and the gas checked. It's just wrong.
Dealership has just called me to say they have been conducting all kinds of tests as required by Harley. They have now ordered new pistons and rings as the bore measurements were at the top of the range. New 10 thou over pistons and rings to go into the barrels once they have been bored out. The valves are black under the head and stem top from oil. They are waiting for HD to decide what needs doing with the valve seals End of next week  they tell me it will be ready. Yeah right!

[Gecko]

Every time I hear another of these stories I further convince myself that if you want to do an engine build - don't use MOCO parts.  They got it wrong the first time, why would they do any better with replacement stuff?  Sorry to hear about your problems.  To date they seem to be doing a lot more than my dealer would have, but I'm waiting for the punchline of "everything seems normal, and that consumption isn't really that bad".

[miker]

Arrrggg!  At least the dealer is trying....Tel em to use aftermarket parts.... Good luck...

[Twolanerider]

Aftermarket branded or HD branded seems likely less the issue here.  Though it seems they're well intentioned the bigger problem here seems the shop. 

Apparently they did an assembly initially without even mic-ing the barrels; and found out later they were beyond spec.  They see oil/carbon coated valves on a very low miles/km build and have to ask the manufacturer what to do.

The bigger problem is the shops are only parts replacers.  Engine assembly, while not necessarily a difficult thing, does require certain attention to details. 

There are learned "feels" to what is going together right and what is not.  There are also many noticable visual clues to watch for.  While 10 thousandths of an inch may not sound like much you can easily feel a .010" ridge on a cylinder.  This wasn't a case where a ridge would have been present but a piston at the top of a .010" over large hole versus a piston at the top of a properly fit hole is a difference you can see; if they're familiar with what they're looking at.

There is some art to the assembly.  Simply putting it all together without knowing how and what to check and what you're looking at while it goes together isn't good enough unless your goal is a mediocre assembly and you know that all the parts are perfect and perfectly prepared.  It doesn't matter how well intentioned the shop might be.  If a shop assembles without those insights and skills they invite problems.

[kiwi]

Every time I hear another of these stories I further convince myself that if you want to do an engine build - don't use MOCO parts.  They got it wrong the first time, why would they do any better with replacement stuff?  Sorry to hear about your problems.  To date they seem to be doing a lot more than my dealer would have, but I'm waiting for the punchline of "everything seems normal, and that consumption isn't really that bad".

I think the Dealer knows me well enough not to pull that "these engines do use more oil than others bull".
The motor job is being covered by the dealer as he did the build and the parts that were used were approved by him prior to the job going ahead so no problem with that end. It remains to be seen what the end result of all this will actually be.

[kiwi]

Aftermarket branded or HD branded seems likely less the issue here.  Though it seems they're well intentioned the bigger problem here seems the shop. 

Apparently they did an assembly initially without even mic-ing the barrels; and found out later they were beyond spec.  They see oil/carbon coated valves on a very low miles/km build and have to ask the manufacturer what to do.

Yeah  I agree with you. Looking at the condition of the valves gave me pause and then he told me he was waiting to hear from HD about what to do about it, that blew my mind. Ghostrider was getting almost 120HP from his build whereas these guys could only get 107HP from my motor and using 95 octane.
I try not to think about it too much and just be patient.

[Twolanerider]

Yeah  I agree with you. Looking at the condition of the valves gave me pause and then he told me he was waiting to hear from HD about what to do about it, that blew my mind. Ghostrider was getting almost 120HP from his build whereas these guys could only get 107HP from my motor and using 95 octane.
I try not to think about it too much and just be patient.

I've ridden Travis' (GhostRider) bike more than once.  It runs nice.  Both the dyno report and the seat of the pants say the bike runs very very well.  If you've repeated that work there is no reason not to believe yours can run comparably.

[kiwi]

I've ridden Travis' (GhostRider) bike more than once.  It runs nice.  Both the dyno report and the seat of the pants say the bike runs very very well.  If you've repeated that work there is no reason not to believe yours can run comparably.

The problem with the motor has obviously been there the whole time. Would this have an influence on the stats they were able to get?

[Twolanerider]

The problem with the motor has obviously been there the whole time. Would this have an influence on the stats they were able to get?

Would? is one of those questions that can't be quantified without knowing what they might have actually done.  Yes, generally, there are things that can be done in an assembly that will impact performance and efficiency.  And these can range from the minor and negligible to the dramatic and significant.  So without knowing or seeing more any answer anyone gives you beyond "maybe" is simply speculation.

One other thing to keep in mind; different dyno and different numbers.  You can't honestly compare your output to another bike unless it's on the same machine.  They do vary.

[kiwi]

Would? is one of those questions that can't be quantified without knowing what they might have actually done.  Yes, generally, there are things that can be done in an assembly that will impact performance and efficiency.  And these can range from the minor and negligible to the dramatic and significant.  So without knowing or seeing more any answer anyone gives you beyond "maybe" is simply speculation.

One other thing to keep in mind; different dyno and different numbers.  You can't honestly compare your output to another bike unless it's on the same machine.  They do vary.

Fair enough. Time will tell I guess.

[kiwi]

Fair enough. Time will tell I guess.

Just called the Dealer to check on progress and spoke with a young service Manager. Apparently Harley have decided to pick up the cost of the motor repairs. They have made two options available to the dealer. Option one is New Barrels with new standard 110 pistons but with the new and improved 2011 ring sets. Option two is New Barrels with Hi Comp Pistons like is in it but not with the new and improved rings. Rings would be as went in originally but then he said, "that may cause the problem to re-occur down the track".
I cannot have the new 2011 style rings with the hi comp pistons he told me so I asked him what the compression of the standard setup would be. He said he would have to get back to me as he did not know.  I reminded him that the engine was set up for 10.5:1 comp and itemised the changes that I had already made and he said that it won't matter much accept to the race tuner. :confused5:He then said the mechanic had commented that they could maybe get option one but plane the heads to increase the compression. I then asked what was being done about the oil on the valves stems etc. He tells me that Harley have sent new and improved valve seals "or something"  :nixweiss:but he was not too sure and his attitude was like "well what does that have to do with the motor problem I was talking about". He was talking like they would sort out what they thought was best and just do it.  I have now instructed him to finish up talking with everyone about the options and then for the owner of the dealership to give me a call later today and discuss this with me so I can choose the option. Then the little bas***d says that the boss is real busy today so he won't be getting back to me today he didn't think.   They have had my SERK3in their workshop since 23rd March and it was supposed to be ready for me by 10th April. In the meantime I bought a new Ultra Limited from this dealership.

[CVOjunkie]

My 103 built to a 107 will probally  no I guarantee will out run a 110 and with no problems  of having blown head gaskets or oil leaks . PLEASE keep up with the old junk.

[Twolanerider]

They have had my SERK3in their workshop since 23rd March and it was supposed to be ready for me by 10th April. In the meantime I bought a new Ultra Limited from this dealership.

Think if I looked up self-flaggelation that'd be one of the definitions.

[kiwi]

Think if I looked up self-flaggelation that'd be one of the definitions.

Ha Ha. Well there's no bleeding yet but I have decided to quit punishing myself anyway.
I think I will book in and get my head checked out though, just to be safe.

I bought the limited and it sounds noisy in the top end now it's done 3000 kms. Looks as though I will have to fix it up like I did with the SERK3, only I don't believe I will be using any Harley parts. Their stuff is rubbish.
The reason I am getting my head checked is because I knew this and bought Harley Davidson anyway. ftmoco

[HD Street Performance]

The dealer game and their hedging can get old. The wiser of the dealers that are dedicated to high quality performance work know how to combine high quality machine work done by subcontractors and use the better of the SE parts to get a very good result. The tune and pipe are integral to this good result. So are many clearance checks a typical "parts changer" would not typically do.

The issues of oil consumption can be linked to valve seals but the program heads have the latest and they are fine. they work well for a while until they are worn due to the excessive clearance they build in to the valve stem to guide fit. Oil comes down the exhaust guide and eventually the heat builds carbon and the valves will seize. This could have been avoided if the MOCO used bronze manganese guides that compliment their high quality valves, Ferrea BTW.

If the rings didn't seal they were likely installed wrong simple as that.
When we get involved with any of this fitting of new pistons we assume the original bore is not acceptable and go right up to the first oversize. This assures that the bore and hone are perfect and they are precision fit to the individual pistons with torque plate bore and honing. We (and other high quality shops) can provide a tighter tolerance fit and  better finish when done in low volume, as we do. All a dealer would typically do is ball hone a newer barrel and use a standard piston. Works fine some of the time.

There is nothing wrong with the parts you choose. There are some assembly problems I am sure of it, plus the guide issue I described previously. We fix the guides before any airflow enhancements because of the severity of the issue and how that impacts long term reliability. These valvetrains have heavy high quality valves, decent valve springs of adequate pressure, and a lot of good things then they fall short.