Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[3mcam]

I have had several tuners. Power Commander, TTS and T-Max. After several thousand dollars in tuners and dyno tunes I would recommend the T-Max with Auto Tuner. Easy of use and simplicity of operation after engine mods, by far have exceeded my expectations. I don't have any problems or complaints about the T-max with auto tuner. And my DTE still works as it did before. Engine has not exceeded 240 degrees it the heat and humidity of South Carolina. Just make sure your head pipe has the correct O2 bungs for the Auto Tuner's O2 Sensors.

[DtyHarry]

No dyno needed on the Thundermax?

[3mcam]

Only if you wish to see numbers, but no not needed.

[DtyHarry]

Ok, thanks... my hesitation in using the Thundermax, however, is warranty issues as its effectively a complete replacement of your original ECM system

[3mcam]

I understand. I waited until by warranty had expired before I did any mods.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

According to my mechanic the new zippers-thundermax is vastly superior to the TTS - (1) it does not require a dyno tune, (2) it automatically adjusts to different climate/altitude conditions, and (3) allows you to change other things later, like cams, w/o paying for another dyno tune, and (4) at present is the most advanced product to use - albeit it is more $$ the lack of a need for a dyno tune makes it about the same price wise.

TTS is not an ECM, like that Tmax is.  So, the PROPER comparison should be Tmax-vs-Delphi.  Dude, that Tmax sucks compared to the Delphi for sure.  The Delphi is a whole nother generation above the TMax.  The TMax is Alphi N and the Delphi is Speed density.  Here is one for you so you know...  the Delphi with ION sensing pulls timing when the engine gets crap gas or starts to ping...  no such thing with a TMax.  ANd... TMax is NOT closed loop fuel control.  TMax allows you to build a new map out of what has been seen by the TMax, it is NOT instantaneous.  TMax does not even use a MAP sensor so it has NO idea of how much load is on the engine.  Alpha-N is WAY past its prime... like a EFI on an 87 Chevy.  It uses throttle position and rpm.  That is IT!  No map signal for loading of the engine...  TMax cannot tell if it is uphill or down hill, etc.

Zippers no longer messes with a TMax either.... or at some point they won't... as stated by Zippers at the last Cinci Expo... it is going back to Thunderheart at some point.

Lastly...  your 'indy' doesn't have a Dyno, I bet, doesn't know how to tune, and a TMax USED to be a way out for guys like this.  There is no way in Heck, I would swap out a DBW Delphi ECM for a TMax... no way.

TTS, SEPST, Direct Link, etc are tools to flash the DELPHI ECM, nothing more.

ANd to the other dude... if you are seeing 300* oil temps... wow!  That bike has issues.  I see hardly ever see any 300* Head temps.  And that is on a 120r.  That 120r is tuned to run quite a bit of closed loop, too.  That 14.4 stuff works FINE.  It is the guy working the dyno.....

[Midnight Rider]

Ok, thanks... my hesitation in using the Thundermax, however, is warranty issues as its effectively a complete replacement of your original ECM system

Just to clear things up a bit....ANY changes to the ECM can technically void the warranty. A lot is dependent on which dealer you take the bike to if there are serious engine problems.  However, the odds are just about 100% that if you take your bike into a dealer and have a Tmax installed, and your engine has some real issues, the MOCO will definitely try to blame it on the Tmax, as you have replaced the entire operating system (in essence) for engine management.  With a device like the TTS, SEPRT, PV, Direct Link, etc, it would be more difficult for them to deny warranty coverage, particularly if all you've done is change the exhaust system and load a new map, whether a canned map or one from a Dyno tune.  In addition, the TTS allows you to upload your stock map from the ECM BEFORE any other changes are made, so you've always got that to fall back on...other tuners may allow that as well, but the one I know will do so is the TTS.  The "canned" map provided by Fullsac for the TTS is not just something that's a "best guess"...many, many hours have been spent on a Dyno perfecting the map you get with their exhaust system, and IMO, it's pretty damn close to perfect.  Again, I'm not saying Fullsac and TTS is the Buddha/Nirvana of all systems, just that it works.

Having said all that, you are 100% more likely to have engine problems due to poor manufacturing practices, inferior parts, and poor assembly than from changing the exhaust system and either a canned map or Dyno tune from a COMPETENT tuner.  There are hundreds of posts here on oil temps, engine heat, blah, blah, blah.  I have yet to hear of an engine failure due to excessive oil temperatures, even on a bone stock motor.  Oil temps on a 110 of 265 degrees are not uncommon, in some cases a bit more.  300 degrees would give me reason to be concerned.  BUT, even then, if you use a good synthetic oil, it will not break down at those temps.  Removing the catalytic converter from the exhaust manifold will definitely cool the perceived heat felt by the rider, and a good tune will help a bit as well.  But you're still sitting on top of a 110 CI air cooled motor with the rear exhaust pipe inches away from your thigh.  It's gonna' be hot.  When it's 95 degrees outside, you're sitting in traffic on black tarmac, it's going to be hotter than Hades (some people call it Hell, I call it Hades...mmmmmmm).  Those situations can sometimes not be avoided, so we just have to "bow up" as we say down here...

[DtyHarry]

Thanks Again... yep, sitting Las Vegas traffic a couple of weeks ago with 100 plus degree temps with my stock exhaust on the CVO was extremely hot..

[grc]

Thanks - the claimed "auto tune" feature does sound a little fishy and I am very concerned about the warranty aspect of my bike - its a 2013 CVO RG. Guess I'll try the TTS... do you really need a dyno with this?

What do you intend to do other than a tune?  If you are thinking of the Fullsac Stage 1 package for instance (pipes, muffler cores, TTS with map), then I'd say based on the many positive reviews on the site that the odds are you wouldn't need a full dyno tune for a good outcome.  There are many satisfied people running the map supplied by Steve at Fullsac.  Might it be possible for a truly good tuner to tweak that map for a little better result on your particular bike?  Yes, but then you need to ask yourself how much you want to spend for some numbers on a chart that may not translate to a better riding experience.  And if you are so inclined and reasonably computer savvy, you can actually do your own data collection and map tweaking with the TTS software (they call it V-Tune).

As for the bogus statements about the T-Max by your mechanic, I hope you realize that opinions like his are somewhat like azzholes; we all have one.  His comment about the T-Max adjusting for altitude and climate made me fall off my chair laughing.  T-Max is one of the LEAST sophisticated products on the market, and is light years behind the stock Delphi engine management system.  They don't even utilize all the sensor data the stock system uses.  To me the entire T-Max deal is proof that a good marketing plan along with misleading claims can take any product of dubious value and make it successful in today's marketplace.  

JMHO - Jerry    (Yes, I have an opinion and have also been known to be an azzhole)

[Jui]

TTS does not require a dyno, as you can do real "field" data recording and TTS VTUNE SW calculates the matching maps for your riding profile. Dyno also covers "non real life" operation areas, but who cares if you never operate your bike under such conditions.
However, you need to spend some effort on TTS but it's worth it as you will get the perfect matching mapping for you & your bike.
Just need a Laptop connected for ca. 3 rides each 45 Minutes in different riding conditions (uphill/ downhill, highway, city).

But read the f***ing manual ;-)

Jui

[Max Headflow]

TTS is not an ECM, like that Tmax is.  So, the PROPER comparison should be Tmax-vs-Delphi.  Dude, that Tmax sucks compared to the Delphi for sure.  The Delphi is a whole nother generation above the TMax.  The TMax is Alphi N and the Delphi is Speed density.  Here is one for you so you know...  the Delphi with ION sensing pulls timing when the engine gets crap gas or starts to ping...  no such thing with a TMax.  ANd... TMax is NOT closed loop fuel control.  TMax allows you to build a new map out of what has been seen by the TMax, it is NOT instantaneous.  TMax does not even use a MAP sensor so it has NO idea of how much load is on the engine.  Alpha-N is WAY past its prime... like a EFI on an 87 Chevy.  It uses throttle position and rpm.  That is IT!  No map signal for loading of the engine...  TMax cannot tell if it is uphill or down hill, etc.

Zippers no longer messes with a TMax either.... or at some point they won't... as stated by Zippers at the last Cinci Expo... it is going back to Thunderheart at some point.

Lastly...  your 'indy' doesn't have a Dyno, I bet, doesn't know how to tune, and a TMax USED to be a way out for guys like this.  There is no way in Heck, I would swap out a DBW Delphi ECM for a TMax... no way.

TTS, SEPST, Direct Link, etc are tools to flash the DELPHI ECM, nothing more.

ANd to the other dude... if you are seeing 300* oil temps... wow!  That bike has issues.  I see hardly ever see any 300* Head temps.  And that is on a 120r.  That 120r is tuned to run quite a bit of closed loop, too.  That 14.4 stuff works FINE.  It is the guy working the dyno.....

John,

You really need to try a tmax..It might teach you something like how to tune a bike..

Max

[Rio]

What do you intend to do other than a tune?  If you are thinking of the Fullsac Stage 1 package for instance (pipes, muffler cores, TTS with map), then I'd say based on the many positive reviews on the site that the odds are you wouldn't need a full dyno tune for a good outcome.  There are many satisfied people running the map supplied by Steve at Fullsac.  Might it be possible for a truly good tuner to tweak that map for a little better result on your particular bike?  Yes, but then you need to ask yourself how much you want to spend for some numbers on a chart that may not translate to a better riding experience.  And if you are so inclined and reasonably computer savvy, you can actually do your own data collection and map tweaking with the TTS software (they call it V-Tune).

As for the bogus statements about the T-Max by your mechanic, I hope you realize that opinions like his are somewhat like azzholes; we all have one.  His comment about the T-Max adjusting for altitude and climate made me fall off my chair laughing.  T-Max is one of the LEAST sophisticated products on the market, and is light years behind the stock Delphi engine management system.  They don't even utilize all the sensor data the stock system uses.  To me the entire T-Max deal is proof that a good marketing plan along with misleading claims can take any product of dubious value and make it successful in today's marketplace.  

JMHO - Jerry    (Yes, I have an opinion and have also been known to be an azzhole)

Jerry,

You know of a good tuner in NW INdiana that knows TTS?  I'm in SE Mich, I would be willing to take a ride out?  I took it to a place and I'm not happy with the results.

[DtyHarry]

Any good TTS tuners in Southern California anybody can vouch for??

Harry

[grc]

Jerry,

You know of a good tuner in NW INdiana that knows TTS?  I'm in SE Mich, I would be willing to take a ride out?  I took it to a place and I'm not happy with the results.

Unfortunately I don't anymore.  The best tuners I knew around here moved on early in the Great Recession.  

There is a place south of Beecher Illinois that has a very good reputation, but I haven't had a chance to stop by and check them out personally.  It's called Valley Racing, and I understand the tuner is quite capable with TTS.  Check with the folks at TTS or some of the TTS tuners on this site for recommendations in southern Michigan or northern Indiana or Ohio.

Jerry

[tweeter13]

Couldn't Harley Davidson theoretically also claim that their ECM also does auto tune as well.  It adjust fuel and if I am not mistaken timing as the bike is being ridden as well once it goes into closed loop.  Using the sensors it reads it adjust according to the parameters set inside it adjusts accordingly.  This in turn is why we flash a new map to give it better figures to run better and cooler.  If you want to pass a California emission test you would give a different map but your engine would run completely different and be hotter.  So to get to the point as as brought up in many threads here auto tune is just vocabulary used for selling a product.  Your ECM on your car in essence auto tunes as you drive the O2 sensors are always fluctuating from rich to lean rich to lean once in closed loop to keep air fuel ratio at their predetermined setting.   In the 80's remember people would buy a chip or prom to put in their cars.  Basically we are building one just for our specific bike and flashing it our ECM.  It's more precise and with the TTS you can really dial it in.   I could be way off the mark here but hope I am a little close. 

Todd