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[2018_FLTRXSE]

As this lifter failure problem seems predominant at 20-25K miles,

WHat oil were each of you running?...

I've used Amsoil 20/50 in all my scoots since late 2002, this is the first catastrophic failure I have had in this time.

However, I used to use the 20/50 race oil and never had an issue. in 2008 I switched to the V-twin formula Amsoil 20/50.


Your thoughts, comments, etc? 

[cvobiker]

As this lifter failure problem seems predominant at 20-25K miles,

WHat oil were each of you running?...

I've used Amsoil 20/50 in all my scoots since late 2002, this is the first catastrophic failure I have had in this time.

However, I used to use the 20/50 race oil and never had an issue. in 2008 I switched to the V-twin formula Amsoil 20/50.


Your thoughts, comments, etc?  

I think the pattern of Lifter failures is more related to high revving motors and high lift cam profiles than type of oil used.. JMO ... OH... and proberly one of most failures people wont admit to, 'improper installations',   very easy to install 180 degrees incorrectly.

[2018_FLTRXSE]

I think the pattern of Lifter failures is more related to high revving motors and high lift cam profiles than type of oil used.. JMO ... OH... and proberly one of most failures people wont admit to, 'improper installations',   very easy to install 180 degrees incorrectly.

How do you install a roller lifter 180 degrees out? These are identical to SBC roller lifters and in that application it doesnt matter which way it does in, just that you install the tie-bar  to keep them from rotating.

I know of 3 people locally that have had similar failures and none of them share my riding habits. When I asked what oil used, it was to spot differences, not similarities.

[CVOMOE!!]

I was going to ask him about installing them wrong as well but you beat me to it. 

[Twolanerider]

How do you install a roller lifter 180 degrees out? These are identical to SBC roller lifters and in that application it doesnt matter which way it does in, just that you install the tie-bar  to keep them from rotating.

The oiling system through the galleys in one engine could be plumbed differently than some other engine as they feed the lifters.  So suggesting that because the lifters work fine in either orientation in a small block Chevy means they absolutely will work ok in a Twin Cam or any other engine isn't a safe assumption.  However....

The plumbing in the Twin Cam does let the lifters pressurize no matter which way the lifters are facing.  Feuling's instructions (for example) nor others I've noticed specify a specific orientation.  And these are the same install instructions that those companies have published for a long time.

Haven't seen the Woods lifters that can only be installed one way.  So don't know if they've changed something about their lifters that make them only work one way.  But in the engine's more than a decade of use the Twin Cam experience and its lifter installations  all inform us that orientation isn't a big deal.

Have to admit I've wondered if Woods has done something unique with its lifters to make it really take advantage of a specific orientation.  Have also wondered, however, if it's just another case of a vendor seeing a product that could be offered as a solution to a problem we didn't really have.  It's not like we won't buy the stuff if it's packaged well....

[2018_FLTRXSE]

The oiling system through the galleys in one engine could be plumbed differently than some other engine as they feed the lifters.  So suggesting that because the lifters work fine in either orientation in a small block Chevy means they absolutely will work ok in a Twin Cam or any other engine isn't a safe assumption.  However....

The plumbing in the Twin Cam does let the lifters pressurize no matter which way the lifters are facing.  Feuling's instructions (for example) nor others I've noticed specify a specific orientation.  And these are the same install instructions that those companies have published for a long time.

Haven't seen the Woods lifters that can only be installed one way.  So don't know if they've changed something about their lifters that make them only work one way.  But in the engine's more than a decade of use the Twin Cam experience and its lifter installations  all inform us that orientation isn't a big deal.

Have to admit I've wondered if Woods has done something unique with its lifters to make it really take advantage of a specific orientation.  Have also wondered, however, if it's just another case of a vendor seeing a product that could be offered as a solution to a problem we didn't really have.  It's not like we won't buy the stuff if it's packaged well....

Woods claims them to be directional, so I can only assume the roller is offset to one side...

I've read of many lifter failures here, and I was hoping to gather some information....

I had 3 fail, with the roller shaft-to-roller having excess play. I do not know if this problem existed prior as this is the first time this was opened up.

My 03FLSTFI had 55K when I did the big bore, hear work and a few other nice-to haves..  assembled with the original lifters and never had an issue... the new owner was very happy with it.

08 FLHX has 22K, no issues, no noises.

We know the story of my 09 SERG.... hence this post.

[Black Label Mark]

I have used either Amsoil V-twin 20/50 or Syn3 oil on my failed lifter.  I switch back and forth between the two.

[HD Street Performance]

Have to admit I've wondered if Woods has done something unique with its lifters to make it really take advantage of a specific orientation

Yes
Axle location offset
Oil feed hole right at the source
FYI it's not your oil

[HUBBARD]

22K miles, HD 20W-50.  FUELING-HD Lifters.  Roller on front Lifter imploded.  Really can't believe it lived as long as it did.  Junked it out.  Back together soon.   Later-HUBBARD

[2018_FLTRXSE]

Have to admit I've wondered if Woods has done something unique with its lifters to make it really take advantage of a specific orientation

Yes
Axle location offset
Oil feed hole right at the source
FYI it's not your oil

I know its not the oil...

We know HD switched from Johnson Hylift lifters to DElphi, and that is where the issues seem to have started.

HD also reduced oil flow to the top end, supposedly to assist with temps (confused here)... My thoughts are oil restriction to the top end was via lifters which feed pushrods and rockers.

AMS now sells a modified version of the Johnson-Hylift lifter, with some oiling improvements (or so they claim).. I may try these or the woods offsets but there is little information out there.... at least the AMS lifters indicate whats been changed from the OE design and the intended improvement.

[grc]

I know its not the oil...

We know HD switched from Johnson Hylift lifters to DElphi, and that is where the issues seem to have started.

HD also reduced oil flow to the top end, supposedly to assist with temps (confused here)... My thoughts are oil restriction to the top end was via lifters which feed pushrods and rockers.

AMS now sells a modified version of the Johnson-Hylift lifter, with some oiling improvements (or so they claim).. I may try these or the woods offsets but there is little information out there.... at least the AMS lifters indicate whats been changed from the OE design and the intended improvement.

That reduction of oil flow to the top end came during final development of the Twin Cam, after they determined the oil temps were significantly higher than those of the EVO.  Typical Harley answer was to reduce the amount of oil going to the hottest part of the engine (the heads), which would lower the overall oil temperature.  Of course, that is one of the reasons for some of the issues with heads these days.  The Harley folks at the time wouldn't consider oil coolers and a higher oil capacity to handle the problem, for cost reasons as well as not wanting to admit their engines run too hot.

I'm pretty certain that this particular reduction of oil flow to the top end has nothing to do with the roller failures.  That comes from other design and quality issues.  Maybe it's time for them to think about going backward, to non-roller lifters and hardened cam lobes.


Jerry

[2018_FLTRXSE]

That reduction of oil flow to the top end came during final development of the Twin Cam, after they determined the oil temps were significantly higher than those of the EVO.  Typical Harley answer was to reduce the amount of oil going to the hottest part of the engine (the heads), which would lower the overall oil temperature.  Of course, that is one of the reasons for some of the issues with heads these days.  The Harley folks at the time wouldn't consider oil coolers and a higher oil capacity to handle the problem, for cost reasons as well as not wanting to admit their engines run too hot.

I'm pretty certain that this particular reduction of oil flow to the top end has nothing to do with the roller failures.  That comes from other design and quality issues.  Maybe it's time for them to think about going backward, to non-roller lifters and hardened cam lobes.


Jerry

I'm trying to justify this either way, and what I see is the oil is restricted to the heads, and the plunger within the lifter is the source of that oil... so the lifte is the root source of the oil flow to the top end.

Now, roller lifters by design have issues. the needles dont survive long under the rigors of daily abuse...

The schubert racing lifters eliminate the needles, but at an extensive cost... are they worth it?... almost $400 says no... but if they prevent the issues of failed lifters people are encountering than you'd have to say yes.

At any rate, I need to do something.... I cant be tearing the motor apart every 23K to change lifters, warranty or not.

[HD Street Performance]

Now, roller lifters by design have issues. the needles dont survive long under the rigors of daily abuse..

Not true
The Delphi Eaton HD lifter commonly know as "B" series is very reliable and robust. The Woods lifter is higher quality. Failing rollers is very rare. The Hylift lifters have had issues since being brought back out of bankruptcy, simple as that but that said not roller failures either. Only lifters that commonly fail rollers are SE/Jims IME. The Schubeck part IMHO is race gear, nothing to be used on a long range street motor, that said the new design is not thoroughly proven yet either.
The HD lifter has the proper quantity of oil headed to the top for most applications. Add more and then you mess with the delicate balance these motors have, engineered for system balance and maximum cooling. That breathing system on top and gravity drainback can only handle so much before the breathers puke. When tuned right the motor will not run too hot for long life. All of these air cooled VTwins run hotter than a typical water cooled motor, plain and simple as that.

[tennisman]

Will be going to pick up Silver - dealer just replaced 4 lifters.  Had it in for noise - noise would not subside for a couple miles of riding (gently I might add - noise worse as revs went up).  I started using Syn3 for maybe half my miles, then went Amsoil syn motorcycle 20W-50 oil.  My mileage at this time is 40,000+.

Wonder how widespread this lifter thing is?  Is it hitting the 103s and 96s?

[HD Street Performance]

Not widespread
Would be difficult to compile any useful data considering the motors use different valve spring pressures, cam profiles and that said many get changed.Then there is the oil to consider and not only the oil itself but how often it is changed. Some of the earlier models have tensioners that wear and contaminate the oil too. Noisy lifters are not usually worn out, they have debris in them. Where did that come from?
So in the end I don't think there is any good hard data to declare an epidemic.
Consider that the HD B lifter has been in use since 2002 (late) with no revisions.