Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[fatboi1959]

My imfo might be outdated but Lee at Jarz told me he likes to tune Direct -Link first followed by sert for whatever that might be worth.

[sadunbar]

Same type of result then as going to the Cometic .030 gasket then, just a different amount of increased compression.  And I take it that's what Dewey refers to as better squish ?  I understand there's different reason for doing this...but I'm on the right page right ?

Don't confuse decking a head (or installing a thinner head gasket) to achieve increased compression - with squish...  These are two different things.  Simply milling the head surface (decking the head face) or installing a thinner head gasket will not effect squish -but it will increase compression.

Read this - it's a reasonably good explanation...  http://www.harley-riders-guide.com/harley-davidson-compression.html

Milling the piston top will decrease squish.  Milling the cylinder length will increase squish.  Spin cutting the head surface can either increase or decrease squish, depending on which portion of the head is being machined.

(edited to correct my dyslectic backwards typing...)

[Mr_Ed]

Thank you....great picture 

[HD Street Performance]

A thinner head gasket reduces stack height and improves squish up to a point where too close of a distance can possibly cause motor damage, in most cases .030 is ideal.
Changing head gasket thickness does change squish
Cutting the piston top decreases squish
Milling heads increases the "squish area" only minor but does not impact the squish distance
Step decking the head can adjust to correct any combination of mismatched deck heights
Did one on Saturday, off a 2010 Road Glide that had front deck height of .0105 and rear of .006. Got the chambers equalized with a minor head cut and then stepped the decks .010 and .006 respectively. Now true even perfect compression matched and correct squish distance in this case .030.

[fatboi1959]

So it would seem a reverse dome piston would (destroy) any squish or how on that?

[HD Street Performance]

Yes that's absolutely true, but the better of the dished pistons match the bathtub and retain the squish. These are my favorite. Some of the Sporty dished pistons ruin the squish.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Speaking of poor squish, the S&S 117" "chopper" engines are minus .044 below deck, and run a .045" head gasket as well. .090" is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too much for us.
That combined with small intake/exhaust valves, and a school bus cam, and those engines are all in by 3500, manufacturing about 117-120 ft/lbs, and MIGHT crest 100 hp.
Once our Stage II S&S Head work is complete, we spin-drop(been doing this for longer than most outfits hve even been in business) the gasket surface to finalize compression, and establish correct squish in one fell swoop. No need to spend the clients dollars on decking the cylinder base.
Combined with either a Wood 9B, or 9F, bored/Thunderjetted S&S G, Thunderheart programable ignition, and tuned, each and every single time they roll off 130 plus/130 plus.
Just an example of what/why spin-dropping can do.
Scott

[HD Street Performance]

My imfo might be outdated but Lee at Jarz told me he likes to tune Direct -Link first followed by sert for whatever that might be worth.

I have used Jarz and they are a great bunch of guys very good honest shop. The only reason I would not use them for a tune is there are some other tuners that I feel do a better job working all the throttle positions and loads. It takes a lot of time to do a proper tune.

[Spiderman]

While very interesting reading this thread has gone to the far side of the moon on technical details. I am thinking the member who orginated the post wasn't or isn't quite into the entire engine building issue to the degree we've taken this. So, going back to the original post in this thread and that member's request that we do indeed critique his choices, the following is MY opinion. Others may agree or disagree.

Unless you are running an older TC , you shouldn't need to spend money on new lifters. I'm not 100% sure what year your bike is but I am assuming it's at least an 09 ? JC's cam choice might well be perfect for him and yet you could be unhappy with it. Cams timing can make you love or hate your motor. Jim that does JC's work is a top notch wrench but unless you are the same weight as JC and twist the throttle just like him, you might not be happy with what makes him happy. If you're going to change cams and do piston work then you should at the same time be doing headwork. What you do again is relative to how you ride and what you like your bike to do when riding. And lastly, your exhaust has to match up with all of the above or it could actually be detrimental to the overall perforamance. Adjustable pushrods are a must for any engine build and the Screamin Eagle ones have been time tested and proven solid. Any major build should include an upgrade to any parts subject to increased stress such as bearings and gaskets. And if you know you've got an issue with your crank and or flywheel set-up, the best time to correct all this is when your engine is down anyway although it seems to me that you are mostly looking at top end issues and working on your crank and flywheels will require cracking your cases. Now the dollar signs get larger. At this point, you should seriously consider buying a turn key big inch motor and swapping out your existing motor. Which motor you choose again should reflect what you are hoping to gain

B B

[dlaws01]

I'm waiting for the Reader's Digest version of this topic to come out.

[Mr_Ed]

Sorry for the delay....didn't mean to abandon the thread...just busier than crap the last couple days.

Yeah the thread got a little detailed about a few things, but it was in response to questions I asked so no worries.  I like expanding my understanding, and I like it when folks who know their chit talk about things that make me reach for that understanding.  One of the reasons I like this forum so much is not because I own CVO's, but because so many of you have a TON of experience and knowledge.  I wish I knew all the intricacies like some of you do, the thing is though, that type of understanding only comes by doing and that's never really been an option for me.  Time, proper tools and opportunity has never really presented itself, but maybe one day when I retire that will be a different story.  I troubleshoot and fix systems on 70 million dollar + airplanes so I'm not totally without aptitude, unless you ask my wife of course 

To answer your question Spiderman, I currently have two CVO's, the blacked out 2010 Ultra my wife fell in love with, and the one I fell in love with, a black diamond/crimson 2011 Street Glide that I traded my 07 SERK for.  The street glide is the one I wanting more out of, but in the end I'm sure I'll do stuff to both.  I don't know what JC weighs, and short of poking some fun at him about "the one thing you never ask" , I scale out at 220.  I have been paying close attention to my riding habits the last few days to help with the decision about the right cam.  Here's the deal, every where I go I ride, everyday no matter what, except ice.  80 percent of my riding is in suburb / city, most of the time I'm driving pretty defensively around 3k on the tach, most of my shifting has me running between 2200 and 4k, I always have cars in front of me and I'm engine breaking constantly.  The other 20 percent I'm with the boys and it's a whole different story.  Most everybody's home having dinner or watching tv, little or no traffic, I'm approaching redline on half my shifts, and hang around 3.5 to 4k on the tach at desired speed.  I would prefer if what I have comes on early rather than late, I would like to be able to pass more efficiently without dropping down a gear, and have greater roll on power when I'm out and about having fun.

That was a good post Spiderman, and pretty much exactly what I'm coming away with in my head from all you guys have said and what I've read.  One thing that has me on the fence about how far to go is my warranty, I hate to throw it away, but I also hate to not make this bike better and address known weak spots.  I would like to get my heads done, not with a goal of going for more compression, but just to make them better, same with the throttle body.  Anything that makes the bike more solid and achieves the goals I laid out in the beginning.  It's the warranty thing that's bugging me, not sure which way to go there or if there's a good place to draw the line. 

[JCZ]

I've been at a svelt 220 lbs. for years but just recently went to the Dr. and I'm down to 215 lbs. so we're very close.  I think you'd be very happy with where my bike is at.  And the up side is that it just didn't cost that much and has never been an issue with warranty repairs.

Having said that, it seems to me that the Cali dealerships really want the work and just aren't that petty about mods like they are in other parts of the country.   You might want to ask around some of the locals and see what their personal experience is with mods and warranty repairs.

[Spiderman]

Mr Ed   Thanks for the kind words. I hope you continue with your research and that the end product is what you want. It's not as easy as some folks make it sound nor as difficult either. As I like to say about most things in life - - you don't have to be a genius, just smarter than what it is you're doing. 

To anyone else, whenever I post that while you may be stone in love with the way your ride is set up that same set up might not be what someone else is looking for, I am NOT dissing your ride. Over the years, I have seen two people do exactly the same thing with perhaps one exception and end up with different results (ask Beags about his exhaust) I think it's great when folks suggest certain combinations of parts and speak of how well they've worked out for themselves, but there should always be the caveat that some of us like pie and some like cake. (ok, so there's a few that like bacon and dounuts  )

B B

[Mr_Ed]

.....bacon and donuts   

So just a few more questions and I'll know what I'd like to do, but ultimately I'm going to leave everything in the builders hands, that would be you Jim (HD-Dude)   I have an german aunt in California I haven't seen since my mom passed, and the wife thinks she wants to fly down (she works for Alaska Airlines) and ride back with me, at least if the weather's not crappy.  Just got to work the details out.

1) To fix potentially excessive crank run-out, you have to split the cases, but what about just to check it....same deal ?

2) Average cost (just a rough idea) to have someone like Darkhorse Crankworks true and weld it ?

3) If cases are split to do this, anything else that should be done while at it ?

4) To upgrade to Timken bearings, the cases need to be split as well, and that would be a partial answer to question 3 ?

5) Last one, struggling to put this in words.  Let me first say, I know a good proven exhaust system compliments a build and is part of the puzzle.  True duals with an open exhaust and little back pressure is not the best choice, but, here's the question.  Could that type of set up actually cause someone to use a different cam to achieve similar results (by similar results I mean where the cam upgrade causes additional increases of HP and TQ in relation to "more to the left or more to the right") as the same bike with a better exhaust choice ?, or does it really have no bearing.

[hd-dude]

.....bacon and donuts   

So just a few more questions and I'll know what I'd like to do, but ultimately I'm going to leave everything in the builders hands, that would be you Jim (HD-Dude)   I have an german aunt in California I haven't seen since my mom passed, and the wife thinks she wants to fly down (she works for Alaska Airlines) and ride back with me, at least if the weather's not crappy.  Just got to work the details out.

1) To fix potentially excessive crank run-out, you have to split the cases, but what about just to check it....same deal ?No, crank runout can be checked by removing the cams and / or primary drive.

2) Average cost (just a rough idea) to have someone like Darkhorse Crankworks true and weld it ?to have the crank trued, plugged and welded runs about $500

3) If cases are split to do this, anything else that should be done while at it ? Timken Bearing is good thing to do when your in there. Doing this makes the bottom end the best it can be.

4) To upgrade to Timken bearings, the cases need to be split as well, and that would be a partial answer to question 3 ?

5) Last one, struggling to put this in words.  Let me first say, I know a good proven exhaust system compliments a build and is part of the puzzle.  True duals with an open exhaust and little back pressure is not the best choice, but, here's the question.  Could that type of set up actually cause someone to use a different cam to achieve similar results (by similar results I mean where the cam upgrade causes additional increases of HP and TQ in relation to "more to the left or more to the right") as the sme bike with a better exhaust choice ?, or does it really have no bearing. Duals with an open muffler and little back pressure will hurt the performance of any cam choice.

Looking forward to working with you on this project