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[JCZ]

Per the rules for posting...."Only one thread per topic", I merged the new thread you'd started with the existing thread you'd started awhile back.

What does your engine builder "Bennet's Performance" in Long Beach have to say about your top end noise?

As you're learning here and there.....there's a lot of options that may quiet it down and different things have worked for different people here.  But I don't think you're going to get a "guarantee" from any builder unless they're rebuilding the entire motor for you....starting with a pinned and welded crank that's been balanced and working up from there.

You have me curious......I'd like to hear what you're referring to.  While I've had the lower end done (the crank pinned, welded and balanced), my heads remain totally stock as they came from the factory and I don't have excessive top end noise.  Certainly not like I had on an old shovel head once.  And.........I can tell you that since I had the bottom end done, I have the quietest and smoothest running Harley I've ever owned (yes, smoother than the EVOs that I've had).  I was quite surprised......I always though when I heard others say that, that it was hocus pokus.  

CAPs also had the same work done on his motor and we were talking about how impressed we were.  I said "feels like I'm on a wing or a BMW instead of a Harley".  CAP's reply......"yea, me too......but we won't tell anybody that".

By the way, before I forget, Jim (hd-dude on this forum) at Metal Dragon in Hayward did both our motors.  He's also done nearly all the motor work of other members of this forum from both Nor Cal and So Cal (yep, even done the work on another CVO from Simi Valley!) and there's a reason for that.  

Do yourself a huge favor......just pick up the phone and give him a call.  Then, when you make arrangements to bring your bike up to him (because you will after you talk to him), let us know so we can arrange a meet n greet with the Nor Cal group.

[JCZ]

I put this reply up once before  ----

Had that same EXACT rattle that I have been trying to get the MOCO to take care of. Has been there for over one year. After having to three different dealers about this problem, I finally dtropped off at dealer in September and left bike so they could hear noise ( worse when engine cold at start up), they had MOCO rep look at it also. The MOCO finally agreed to have top end torn down. They found the piston clearance was at maximum specs. MOCO gave them authorization to bore .010 oversize and do a "custom fit" on that clearance so they could put it to the low side of the specs. The dealer tried to get the MOCO to authorize a valve job at same time, but that was declined. My dealer stepped up to the plate for me and did the valves at no expense to me, as they felt there could be a problem there also, and did not want to take the chance of putting it back together without seating valves. That turned out to be a smart decision, as they found the valves were not seating in the heads properly and were creating a "click" when seating back down on the heads. The problem is that the MOCO had a 7 week back order on the pistons. I just got the bike back yesterday from a 9 week lay up in the shop. I rode about 100 miles yesterday  ------   that noise is eliminated!!  My dealer wanted to clearance the pistons themselves, so they could keep that clearance tight. They said on the assembly line there is to much chance of not keeping those critical tolerances tight on each and every set, and with the short skirted pistons, there seems to be many problems out there with piston slap. That must be why the long back order?? They tried to get a new set of jugs from the MOCO before they went to the final stages of boring, but the MOCO denied that one. Dealer wanted to be able to bore a new set of jugs for stock pistons, but had to do the .010 oversize instead.  They also stated that they thought the valve problem was most of the noise. Whatever the case is, the noise is gone, and now I can wait for the next problems to arise. They did the brake light switch recall, so that one is taken care of also. I did just contract with Legacy H.D. and extended the warranty for 5 more years after all this happened. If you have this same noise, take it in and MAKE them repair it. My dealer even stepped up to the plate and gave me a 2011 loaner for one weekend so I could do a charity ride , at no cost to me ( that bike did not have the noise, but it was a 103). Their service is superb. I can not say the same thing about the MOCO, as they like to fight you to the end.

ReplyQuoteNotify

I guess I'd have to agree with your dealership......but that doesn't just apply to pistons and valves.  Look at the slopiness on the crank run out.   Kind of begs the question "so why are the toleraces not the same for each motor?"

[HD Street Performance]

If Eric is working on it you are in good hands. Branch is right across the street and they can fix the heads if they deem that necessary. I have seen several cases of out of spec. piston to wall clearance with these 110 motors and the noise is worse cold, that is the key identifier. The Mahle forged pistons are a quality piece but have short narrow cam ground skirts and that is difficult to get to quiet down even with the proper clearance. I have a set and out of curiosity I will have to see if they have an offset pin, which can help to quiet them down a little, I tend to doubt it. The clearance is built into the piston so a true 4" bore will provide the proper clearance automatically.

[cahdbiker]

Hi Deweysheds Thanks for the imput. I have learned a lot from your posts. At idle my engine is quiet cold or hot it just makes the clattering noise between 2200-2800RPM. If Eric looks at it and sayes he knows what it is I will throw some money at it even though I am still under warranty (I don't know if he is authorized HD Repair, I know he is for S&S) , but if he rides it and sayes leave it alone I will. Thanks againCAHDBIKER

If Eric is working on it you are in good hands. Branch is right across the street and they can fix the heads if they deem that necessary. I have seen several cases of out of spec. piston to wall clearance with these 110 motors and the noise is worse cold, that is the key identifier. The Mahle forged pistons are a quality piece but have short narrow cam ground skirts and that is difficult to get to quiet down even with the proper clearance. I have a set and out of curiosity I will have to see if they have an offset pin, which can help to quiet them down a little, I tend to doubt it. The clearance is built into the piston so a true 4" bore will provide the proper clearance automatically.

[JCZ]

Hi Deweysheds Thanks for the imput. I have learned a lot from your posts. At idle my engine is quiet cold or hot it just makes the clattering noise between 2200-2800RPM. If Eric looks at it and sayes he knows what it is I will throw some money at it even though I am still under warranty (I don't know if he is authorized HD Repair, I know he is for S&S) , but if he rides it and sayes leave it alone I will. Thanks againCAHDBIKER

On a factory warranty, only a HD dealership is authorized to do factory warranty work.  If it's exteded warranty, nearly any independant shop can do it.

In some cases, even when it's under factory warranty......it's better to pay out of pocket and have a reliable independant do the work......in order to get it done "correctly".

[cahdbiker]

JCZ, I  have the 7 year extended warranty with tire coverage. My bike is an 09 and I got it in August of 08 so I guess I am into my extended warranty period now.I still have to go  to Bennett's it is 61 miles from my home, not too far, unless you don't like driving on the 405 Freeway.I have  talked to Eric about my top end noise. He will take it for a ride and give me his opinion. Then I will post about what happened.CAHDBIKER

On a factory warranty, only a HD dealership is authorized to do factory warranty work.  If it's exteded warranty, nearly any independant shop can do it.

In some cases, even when it's under factory warranty......it's better to pay out of pocket and have a reliable independant do the work......in order to get it done "correctly".

[2harleys]

I guess I'd have to agree with your dealership......but that doesn't just apply to pistons and valves.  Look at the slopiness on the crank run out.   Kind of begs the question "so why are the toleraces not the same for each motor?"

I guess you only have to look as far as where and by whom these parts are being manufactured??

[cahdbiker]

2harleys, your post makes me wonder who and where the cranks are being put together. If it is here in the U.S.A. and they have a small group of people who assemble cranks, they should somehow be able to be identified to any crank they put together, maybe by vin number, or some code on the crank itself.   If people started getting fired for bad workmanship they would have a different attitude about the quality of their personal work. The crank is the heart of the engine. It is the most important part. If a person wants to change to gear drive for example the crank should be true enough so that it would be a non issue. However if someone is doing a build and wants to get 120HP/120 lbs of torque and put that load on a crank originally made to not handle that much power they shouldnt expect it to last very long unless they true,plug and weld it. I am not sticking up for HD because most of the complaints on this post are valid ones, but most of us have at least 40K into our CVOs by the time they roll out of the dealer's parking lot. You would at least expect the crank to be as true as humanly possible. Sorry long post. I am just frustrated with the chronic amount of untrue cranks people on the site are talking about. It is fu--en bullchit on harley's part and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sorry for the long post. CAHDBIKER 

I guess you only have to look as far as where and by whom these parts are being manufactured??

[bloper123]

I had new cam shafts, new push rods and valves but in at 7500 miles all stock and i dont have eny valve noisy , why just going  back  with all stock parts stopped the noisy , I dont unerstand but I am a happy camper !!!!!!              The reason this was replaced dropped a valve roller hard coat came off...    

[Midnight Rider]

2harleys, your post makes me wonder who and where the cranks are being put together. If it is here in the U.S.A. and they have a small group of people who assemble cranks, they should somehow be able to be identified to any crank they put together, maybe by vin number, or some code on the crank itself.   If people started getting fired for bad workmanship they would have a different attitude about the quality of their personal work. The crank is the heart of the engine. It is the most important part. If a person wants to change to gear drive for example the crank should be true enough so that it would be a non issue. However if someone is doing a build and wants to get 120HP/120 lbs of torque and put that load on a crank originally made to not handle that much power they shouldnt expect it to last very long unless they true,plug and weld it. I am not sticking up for HD because most of the complaints on this post are valid ones, but most of us have at least 40K into our CVOs by the time they roll out of the dealer's parking lot. You would at least expect the crank to be as true as humanly possible. Sorry long post. I am just frustrated with the chronic amount of untrue cranks people on the site are talking about. It is fu--en bullchit on harley's part and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sorry for the long post. CAHDBIKER  

Made in China...

They are still made to HD specs, and HD changed the specs dramatically to avoid replacing cranks that did not meet the old specs.  Acceptable runout is twice what it was formally.

[Z man]

2harleys, your post makes me wonder who and where the cranks are being put together. If it is here in the U.S.A. and they have a small group of people who assemble cranks, they should somehow be able to be identified to any crank they put together, maybe by vin number, or some code on the crank itself.   If people started getting fired for bad workmanship they would have a different attitude about the quality of their personal work. The crank is the heart of the engine. It is the most important part. If a person wants to change to gear drive for example the crank should be true enough so that it would be a non issue. However if someone is doing a build and wants to get 120HP/120 lbs of torque and put that load on a crank originally made to not handle that much power they shouldnt expect it to last very long unless they true,plug and weld it. I am not sticking up for HD because most of the complaints on this post are valid ones, but most of us have at least 40K into our CVOs by the time they roll out of the dealer's parking lot. You would at least expect the crank to be as true as humanly possible. Sorry long post. I am just frustrated with the chronic amount of untrue cranks people on the site are talking about. It is fu--en bullchit on harley's part and they don't seem to give a rats ass. Sorry for the long post. CAHDBIKER 


I could not agree more that MOCO should be more demanding on the crank specs!  My 2005 Ultra always vibrated awful at idol.  It improved slightly when I made it 96" with a cam, heads and other upgrades.  After about 12000 miles the bottom end need repaired.  I'm convinced it was bad out of the factory.  This bike was my first Harley after riding for many years. Even though it was serviced by a dealer on several occasions, they never said anything about the unbalanced engine and I did not know the difference because I was always told Harley engines vibrated a lot!  Some $2000 in repairs later, I have a bad taste for MOCO, even though I love my 2010 CVO.   

[digga25]

JCZ,when you had the crank done,where did hd dude send it to be done,or did he do it in house.Thanks,Fred.

[sadunbar]

JCZ,when you had the crank done,where did hd dude send it to be done,or did he do it in house.Thanks,Fred.

You could ask Jim directly...  http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?action=profile;u=619

[Trapperdog]

Made in China...

They are still made to HD specs, and HD changed the specs dramatically to avoid replacing cranks that did not meet the old specs.  Acceptable runout is twice what it was formally.

Actually I think it's 4 times as much.  .003 to .012  Even so, twice as much shouldn't be acceptable   but they're playing the #'s game. Mine was at .008 45K ago. I now have 65K and although she sounds like a freight train, she's still holding together. I can only hope that the oil pump explodes within the 2 years I have left on my extended warranty and not after.

[HD Street Performance]

First and with due respect what is your source of information that shows the HD crank made in China?

Second regarding warranty
True story, had a new 1981 Camaro that used oil from day 1. dealer ran me through the hoops trying to avoid the issue including having to get tests done with a sealed dipstick and having to pay them to change my oil blah blah blah. A quart every 200 miles. I lived in a remote mountain town 180 miles away from the dealer and I just decided enough was enough. Pulled into a Circle K a mile from the dealer in Phoenix and opened the motor up to just short of floating the valves and held it till it blew. Called a tow truck. New motor no questions.
I am not suggesting anyone follow that lead but just indicative of weaseling around real issues. The better dealers do not work this way and there are some.