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[CVOJOE]

[highlight]How much is it?  Where do I get it? [/highlight]\
You can find the Feuling oil pump and lifters as a kit for $360 most of the time. Cams, well there are lots of discussion on the site about Zippers & Freedom Cycle cams, with prices but as I recall they're about equal for the 103" cam kits with pushrods, bearings, etc and they run like $800 plus or minus, more likely a plus  .

[BLM777]

Increased pressure means nothing to me, you can increase the pressure by restricting the discharge of the pump, whats the GPM compared to the stock pump?

Don't know of any performance or race application that measures in GPM.  Volume of flow is usually measured as a pressure index.

Object of the exercise is to increase volume and scavange.  Volume means more oil circulating for both lubrication purposes and cooling by moving more oil through the system, obviously including the oil cooler.  Scavange  is the ability to cycle more oil from the resevoir through the pump as in more volume and eliminating the wet sumping and notoriously poor top end lubrication common to Twin Cams.  Feuling claims a 40% increase in volume (reflected as pressure).  The oil pressure gauge reads 40-50% higher and the operating temp is noticably lower.  Guess it works.

[UltraPolecat]

I have been ignoring all these oil threads for a while now, I guess burying my head in the sand thinking it will all go away.  Well, I guess I have now been convinced.  Looks like its gonna be Amsoil or Mobil 1 next week for the 2500 mile change. [smiley=confused5.gif] Decisions....decisions....

[Scrrem]

Wow....I guess I need to get this Syn3 crap out.  Mobile 1 seems pretty easy to find but who stocks Red Line and Amsoil?
Screem

[Midnight Rider]

Scrrem...you can find Amsoil at most bike dealers, other than HD of course.  You see, most manufacturers of motorcycle engines realize there are already excellent products in the marketplace.....like the three mentioned in this thread...so, rather than offer their customers a low bid, questionable product, produced by god knows who, and charging the customer more than any of the other more superior products already on the market, they allow the consumer to choose from quality products which meet or exceed the specifications necessary for their engines, and make a reasonable profit by stocking them in their service departments.  Consumer wins, service dept uses a quality product, they make a small profit margin on a few quarts of oil...everybody is happy.

Check with a local Honda/Yamaha dealer, or BMW/Ducati/Triumph.  I'm sure other places carry it as well...I'm using Mobil 1, and it is available at local places like Autozone, Advanced Auto, sometimes WalMarK....you might have to ask for it though,as Advanced does not keep it on the shelf, but in the back...not enough room to stock all their product on the shelf.

[Hogfn]

Maybe it's my nature or am I being too anal but if I were to deliver oil with my bike at the next service, how can I be sure he dumps my oil in?  I get free service checks, they charge extra for the syn3 oil though.  What do you all think?  I've got #13,800 on my '05 SEEG using the syn3 and it's time to switch.  

I"ve used Mobil 1 in all my vehicles for over 25 years, used and new cages, and can honestly say I"m extremely pleased.  I have a minivan that has 140,000 and never an engine problem---did have to replace the trans under warranty though.  I changed the oil/filter once a year or #12,000 miles, whichever comes first.  I did take the engine apart on my '78 Triumph Spitfire just to look inside, and it was cleaner than a whistle with no sludge or other deposits.  I do have personal experience of changing to Mobil 1 on an 'extremely' used Cutlass and it did leak a small bit around the seals but nothing dramatic, something I could easily live with.....

I'm leaning toward Mobil 1 because it seems more readily available but at the same time am considering becoming an Amsoil dealer on the side so that I can stock it and be a local source for others if there's a need.    What do you all think?

Thanks! :-?

[RJ749]

Here is a compehensive 2006 test on synthetic oil and specifically motorcycle oils, which include Amsoil, Syn3, Mob 1 and others.  Bottom line in total score Amsoil and Mob 1 score number one and two.

The entire paper is 28 pages but easy reading if you are interested and most of us are.  Great comparison of scientifically accepted testing and results.

I will attach the results page here which you may need to print to read of just go to the link and read it there.

http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/mc_oils_white_paper_g2156.pdf

[MJZ]

My head's hurtin' too, MJ[highlight]...can I join you?[/highlight]    

Sure, I drive down 78 to I-65 thru Birmingham every Thursday or Friday and back up every Sunday.

[grc]

OK guys, you're getting into some really complex stuff here, as pressure alone will not help, depending on the size of the pipes/orfrices you are pushing the liquids through.  While it is true, generally, that increased pressure = increased flow, that is true only to a certain point, and increased flow does not necessarily equate to more cooling effect or more effective lubrication, as heat transfer is dependent upon many factors, and tolerances will only allow a certain amount of liquid to occupy a certain sized space, though it will move through that space faster.

Any Engineerrs here? (spelling on purpose)....

It's been a while, and this stuff makes my head hurt!!

TC,

Valid point.  Increasing the flow rate of the pump beyond the capability of the rest of the engine is pretty much a waste - all you would be doing is pumping excess oil through the bypass and incurring pumping losses.  Unfortunately, we don't have the data on the engine necessary to calculate the max flow rate.  Another point is that high volume & pressure are not as necessary on a ball & roller bearing engine as they are on a plain bearing engine.  So I guess there really is no definite answer available to the question "Do I really need to change to a Fueling pump, or is the stock pump good enough?".  My feeling is that a stock pump in good condition should be adequate for a stock or nearly stock bike.  Once you start with the major mods, however, I would still recommend upgrading the pump just for the insurance factor.  If you're going to drop several $k on engine work, the $350-400 for the pump makes more sense.  

Jerry    

[RJ749]

I will attach the results page here which you may need to print to read of just go to the link and read it there.
http://www.performanceoiltechnology.com/mc_oils_white_paper_g2156.pdf

Conclusion of paper:

Conclusion
The intent of this document is to provide scientific data on the performance of motorcycle oils and information on their intended applications. The document also attempts to dismiss several rumors or mistruths common to motorcycle oils. In doing so, it will assist the reader in making an informed decision when selecting a motorcycle oil.
The tests conducted are intended to measure variables of lubrication critical to motorcycles, with some having much greater value than others. Gear and general anti-wear protection, oxidation stability and rust protection are the most important, with zinc content being among the least important. The results were not weighted based on importance. The value of each test is to be determined by the reader.
The data presented serves as predictors of actual service; the better the score, the better the performance. AMSOIL MOE and MOV demonstrated superior performance, particularly in the most important areas, and each ranked first overall in its respective category. It should be noted that the performance of a given manufacturer’s oils was not always consistent between viscosities. Eor example, Motul 300V Sport scored second within the SAE 40 group while Motul 300V Oompetition scored ninth in the SAE 50 group.
The results suggest a relationship between the cost of an oil and its level of performance. Generally, higher priced oils tend to perform better, although price alone is not a guarantee of performance. Motul 300V Oompetition was the most costly oil tested, yet lower priced oils showed better performance. Price must be put into perspective. The cost of oil compared to the cost of a motorcycle is minimal. The cost difference between the average price for motorcycle oils and the most expensive oils is about $10 per oil change. If the performance of an oil can support an extended oil change interval, that cost is reduced. The consumer must consider the performance and benefits offered by an oil and how those benefits affect their motorcycle investment to determine the oil’s value.
In conclusion, maximum performance and cost effectiveness are obtained when one looks beyond marketing claims and selects a product based on the data that supports it.
25

[RJ749]

Maybe it's my nature or am I being too anal but if I were to deliver oil with my bike at the next service, [highlight]how can I be sure he dumps my oil in?[/highlight]  I get free service checks, they charge extra for the syn3 oil though.  What do you all think?  I've got #13,800 on my '05 SEEG using the syn3 and it's time to switch.  
  What do you all think?
Thanks! :-?

Simple, he's going to use your oil since you aren't paying for the Syn3 and he isn't going to pi$$ away $30.00 of Syn3 if you give him your Mob 1 or whatever.

As for what I think, take a case of Mob 1 and get 'er done [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[Ironhorse]

Talked to my service manager (a friend of mine) this last weekend and was informed that Harley is having major problems with their SYN3 oil.  This problem seems to occur in the hotter areas of the country where the oil drains from parts in the heat after sitting.  Was shown a set of cam bearings that were worn really bad, this was caused by no oil on the bearing during startup.  Was also tolded that I should get SYN3 out of my bike and go back to the Harley regular oil.  Don't know for sure......just wanted to post this to let others know.  

DWGibson,

Since you made this original posting, it has been cut and pasted all over the internet on other forums. So much so, that after all the usual oil issue debates, many folks are now considering this just another one of those "urban legend myths", concocted to drive up more Amsoil and Mobile 1 sales. So, in the interest of honesty and fairness for the entire motorcycling community, would you please post the name of the dealer and the service writer who personally made that statement to you.

Please understand, by asking for this information I am not challenging your candor. If anything the information you provide will serve to quiet the masses and allow people to come to their own rational and logical conclusion.

Thank you


Mark

[arcticdude]

I'm probably going to get flamed for this, but here goes anyway.  In looking at the oil chart, Syn3 has the best ratings for foaming, gear performance and acid neutralization.  I'd think these were 3 areas that an oil needs to perform exceptionally well for a bar hopper.  Short hard spurts.  The long distance riders would benefit better from better viscosity shear and the high temp ratings.  Seems like Syn3 may be better for what the majority of HD (hell, most any) riders ride like.  As a collective whole, the CVO group is certainly NOT your average rider.  Just food for thought.

[Midnight Rider]

Thanks for the post Roger...proves what we've been talking about on here for the last couple of days, and before on other threads.  Both products will do an excellent job, are less expensive than syn3, etc.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Jerry...also excellent points concerning pressure, volume, etc.  Since we don't know the flow rate capabilities of the Twin Cams, it is a "best guess" scenerio, and it would always be better to err on the side of higher pressure, all other things being equal.  If you've got the engine apart to do the cam, gear drive, and other mods, and can afford the extra bucks for the pump and lifters, it's just insurance, and relatively cheap insurance at that.  Just running the good oil in a basically stock engine, with the stock pump should make everything alright and take the worries away.

Hogfn...The local dealer here did not want to put the Mobil in my bike when I took it in for the 1K service, even though I had the oil in the tourpak.  Rather than getting into a pissing contest with them (I did not buy the bike from them, but from Mobile HD), and knowing that if I had any real warranty problems or call-backs, they would be the ones who would have to do them, I just let them put syn3 in, then changed it 50 miles later myself. 60 bucks literally down the drain. From this point forward, on the service intervals and things I do not feel comfortable doing myself, which are becoming fewer, I will simply change them myself prior to taking it in, and not allow them to change the fluids, but do everything else.  Hopefully, your dealer is more reasonable, and will allow you to use a superior product in your scoot.  The two dealers here in Birmingham are owned by the same person, so I didn't think it worth the risk of getting bad blood started, though I was tempted.  Technically, if they refuse to put an oil of your choice, which meets or exceeds their specifications (which Mobil and Amsoil both accomplish), they have to GIVE you their oil...I don't want the chit in my motor, even if they do give it to me, and the argument that would ensue, would accomplish nothing other than to get my blood pressure up, so I'll just let sleeping dogs lay.

[Michael]

I am now content with my choice to use Mobil 1, the paper confirmed it.

I have achieved solemoneness...as they say.

Not to mention, Jerry gave me the  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Have a good day.