Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[stestrglde]

Hello everyone brand new to the site but have been riding for 31 years, joined the site because I have some questions that I would rather here from riders like you than dealerships who just want to sell unneeded stuff. I have a 2012 Street glide and purchased some CVO screaming eagle pipes from a friend. Sound is horrible, i am thinking about going with fulsac 2.0 baffles and my question is
 I found 09 header pipes to rid myself of the heat of the Cat, can I plug the bung holes on the 09 and redrill and weld new bung holes where the 12 o2 sensors go, or should I purchase an extension to plug into original placement of the 09 sensors. Or, should I cut out the cat of my 12 stock. My son is a welder and could do all of this easy, just dont know which way to go. And after all this will I have to remap my fuel system.

[Steve Cole]

DO NOT try and run the sensors in the '09 position! First off the sensor is much shorter so you would never get a correct reading from the sensor and second the sensor was not designed to be that close to the port. If your into fabrication you can locate and weld in bungs made PROPERLY for the new sensors or just buy a replacement pipe from Fullsac or Cycle Shack that already has them located for you.

[glens]

While you could've gotten by just running the other mufflers after the cat, without the cat you're going to need to recalibrate the ECM, so get yourself a TTS kit or one of the others that aren't quite as good.

Also, you'll want to make sure that both sensors are well-isolated from each other.  Using the '09 head pipe with '10+ sensor locations, you'll want to install a short piece of tube into the collector to extend the front cylinder pipe.  This will necessitate cutting the collector open and welding it together again.

I'd say you'll be better off with a Fullsac or Fuelmoto X pipe system than trying to make the '09 or stock head pipe assembly work well.

[stestrglde]

Thank you both steve and glen, I am so glad a friend recommended this site without someone selling something. Whats your thoughts on keeping the cat and stock headers and just ordering the fulsac baffles until i have enough funds in pocket to order proper headers without screwing up my bike.

[glens]

I ran just the Fullsac baffles behind stock everything else for a little while on my '12 Ultra Classic.  Works and sounds good.  I'd get the baffle set for those CVO mufflers and use them that way.  Leave the "packing" in the cans.

[stestrglde]

Perfect, I will run the fulsac baffles, save some money and get the right head pipe when the time is right, which I have a feeling it will have to be this summer with that damm Cat being so hot.  Thank you all

[stestrglde]

I have another question that I need some help with.  I'm still confused on if I can just cut out my catalytic converter  and reweld it, I'm going with 2.0 fulsac baffles but i'm trying to save a little cash by somehow reuseing my stock headers. And if I do cut it and reweld it what would be my next step in getting my bike tuned right. Anyone out there have this done and or thoughts. Thanks

[glens]

Lots of folks have done it.  With the smaller heated O2 sensors mounted by the tranny the front cylinder's sensor is basically in the "collector" and can be adversely influenced, which ain't good.

[stestrglde]

Glens, but cutting out the cat will work? correct?  I dont see know reason to buy a new header pipe when this one should work if cut and rewelded correctly or am I missing something, but I do plan on getting it retuned due to the extra air i'm letting in, any thoughts

[glens]

Like I said, it's more likely than just a crap shoot that you'll have problems running closed loop if you just gut a '10+ factory head pipe.  Not a good way to save a few bucks in my opinion.

[Fullsac Performance]

Reversion and cross reading are two separate things.The symptoms may be getting confused.The 2010 and later headpipes 02 sensors are well separated by the lower exhaust tube extending
into the cat chamber. I have cut welded and tuned more non cat 2010 OEM headpipes than I can count on all my toes and fingers with no issues of cross reading between cylinders. However, idle and very low load RPM are an opportunity for reversion (air traveling upstream through the exit) to occur in a free flowing exhaust system. Cams with increased overlap compound the problem if it exist. The cat is not a one way check valve and provides no restriction to exhaust movement in either direction at idle and low RPM. If you were to remove the mufflers completely from a stock bike with cat and attempt to gather Vtune data,the sensors would read a mix of exhaust and clean air from the close proximity of the exhaust exit and the effects of reversion allowing clean air to travel upstream to the nearby 02 sensor. The cat would not prevent this from happening. It flows the same in both directions. When reversion occurs during Vtuning, the VE numbers get bigger and the engine runs richer as the 02 sensors are reading a mix of exhaust and outside air and keep telling the ECM its lean. Short dual exhaust on Softails with 02 sensors are a nightmare to gather VTune dat from due to this issue. Muffler core size and design also play a major part in reversion issues. I always use a louvered core in my mufflers. Unlike the cat, air does not flow upstream very well against the open louvers. Mufflers with perforated cores flow the same in both directions. Excessively large diameter cores can also bring on the effect of reversion as the slow moving air at idle and low speed is easily reversed in direction. Not looking for a debate, just sharing experiences from my dyno room and the real world. Just for the record, I am currently running a non cat OEM headpipe on my 2012 103 at the moment. Runs flawless.

Steve George
Fullsac Performance

[HOGMIKE]

Reversion and cross reading are two separate things.The symptoms may be getting confused.The 2010 and later headpipes 02 sensors are well separated by the lower exhaust tube extending
into the cat chamber. I have cut welded and tuned more non cat 2010 OEM headpipes than I can count on all my toes and fingers with no issues of cross reading between cylinders. However, idle and very low load RPM are an opportunity for reversion (air traveling upstream through the exit) to occur in a free flowing exhaust system. Cams with increased overlap compound the problem if it exist. The cat is not a one way check valve and provides no restriction to exhaust movement in either direction at idle and low RPM. If you were to remove the mufflers completely from a stock bike with cat and attempt to gather Vtune data,the sensors would read a mix of exhaust and clean air from the close proximity of the exhaust exit and the effects of reversion allowing clean air to travel upstream to the nearby 02 sensor. The cat would not prevent this from happening. It flows the same in both directions. When reversion occurs during Vtuning, the VE numbers get bigger and the engine runs richer as the 02 sensors are reading a mix of exhaust and outside air and keep telling the ECM its lean. Short dual exhaust on Softails with 02 sensors are a nightmare to gather VTune dat from due to this issue. Muffler core size and design also play a major part in reversion issues. I always use a louvered core in my mufflers. Unlike the cat, air does not flow upstream very well against the open louvers. Mufflers with perforated cores flow the same in both directions. Excessively large diameter cores can also bring on the effect of reversion as the slow moving air at idle and low speed is easily reversed in direction. Not looking for a debate, just sharing experiences from my dyno room and the real world. Just for the record, I am currently running a non cat OEM headpipe on my 2012 103 at the moment. Runs flawless.

Steve George
Fullsac Performance

A couple of pics would probably help!
Head pipe:
 

[HOGMIKE]

Muffler cores.......these are older ones, and I THINK the new ones are very similar.
 

[Steve Cole]

I think that some major things are being discussed here and they need to be understood. The first thing that stands out is what is going on. With any modification that causes Vtune to have trouble means only one thing and that is the ECM is having trouble with that modification. Vtune only reports what the ECM is seeing, so you need to understand that if Vtune is showing it to you, that is what the ECM is doing NOT Vtune.

So now, what is cross talk and what is reversion and the other missing part which is EGR. All these come into play at low engine speeds and free flowing exhaust systems. We define Cross talk as when you get the exhaust from one cylinder to the other cylinders O2 sensor, Reversion is when you get free air pulled back up the exhaust system and EGR is when exhaust gas is pushed back into the intake system. ALL of these will cause low RPM issues that the ECM has to deal with. I have personally seen Cross talk on bikes with the Catalytic converter removed from the head pipe on 2010 and newer Touring bikes. How much and how little greatly depends on the mufflers behind the head pipe. The smaller the engine displacement also plays into what's going on so what you see on a 110 versus what you see on a 96 can be two completely different things. By removing the Cat what you have done is allowed the exhaust to move freely around in an open collector where the Cat was removed from and this is what allows the Cross talk to happen. When the Cat was in place the front cylinder has and extended pipe inside that directs the majority of it flow into the cat which is honeycomb in shape and that exhaust travels through the cat before mixing with the rear cylinder exhaust. The cat by keeping the front and rear cylinder exhaust separated as it travels through it is what helps stop the cross talk. Once the Cat has been removed that separator has been removed and now the exhaust from the front cylinder mixes with the rear cylinder right at the point of the rear cylinder O2 sensor mainly during Reversion times. So understanding the conditions is very important.

As with any modification your results are going to be based on the total of your modifications, so there is no one size fits all answer for all of you.

[stestrglde]

Well now that I'm thoroughly confused, I'm not sure what to do. I do know I have the 2.0 fulsac baffles arriving monday and i am going to hopefully install them myself. After that I dont know what ill do. Sure was easier in the old days when you could tear your bike apart, your buddies would come over and in 3-4 hours and a case a beer you were out on the bike again. But Thanks for the replies