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[WFP]

I was riding my SED home yeterday and got to thinking about the CVO line from HD and really questioned the direction Harley was heading.

In late summer of 2002, Anne and I decided to get a new bike, keeping the Road King...an Ultra likely, but that never happened...the dealer never got us one.  Later (Feb 2003), I saw the SED on the floor (and fell in love with it) and convinced Anne that I would get that now and then in 2004 get an Ultra trading in the RK.  I really had just learned about CVOs maybe in the Fall of 2002...reading about the SERK and the SED...since we wanted the Ultra, I never even considered the SERK.

Anyway, in late summer of 2003, I saw the 2004 CVO models and knew right away that the SEEG was going to be our next bike...and we wanted the B/B version.  Then in 2005 I took the York Factory tour with others from this site and realized how HD had a separate manufacturing line for CVOs and thought that was pretty cool.  So, when I bought the 2006, I thought that the personal touch of the CVO line would make it a better bike...sadly, I don't believe this anymore.

I also am now feeling that HD is saturating the CVO idea.  It is clear to me that these bikes are not as special to HD as I thought...this year there are FOUR different CVOs and two of them are touring bikes.  To me, the Apex was 2004 model year...the last where they only had two models...coinsiding with the SEEG, sure, but that is not the only reason.

In looking at the 2007s...they have really done a poor job of making the CVO an elite bike...yes, they do give it a bigger engine still, but the custom paint sets that are now available are [highlight]MUCH NICER [/highlight]than any of the CVO paints...sure, you can buy the CVO Ultra and then change to the radical paints for another $5K+ but why should we have to do that???  I will step off my  [smiley=soapbox.gif] now.

What do you all think?

/Bill

[WFP]

As you can probably tell, I had a bad day at work yesterday...left late and stopped for a couple of  [smiley=drink.gif] on the way home.  Needed to think of something other than work...the above is what I came up with...

/Bill

[GC_Super]

I tend to agree with you. When I looked at the 07 line up, I wasn't that impressed. Four bikes this year. How many next year? They seem to be making more than less of each model also.  Resale will suffer, but it will be eaiser for people that want one to find it.  For me personally, the CVO still makes sense, as I like the bigger factory motors and other extras that I would put on the bike anyway, but this way I can recoup more dollars at trade time.

[naitram]

i added a 3rd option to your poll. i'm on the fence on this issue, the P&A paint sets have always been more radical then the CVO sets so thats nothing new, CVO's still get bigger motors and extra chrome goddies, but expanding to 4 lines ( 2 in touring ) doesnt seem to exclusive any more and as d00d mentioned in another post everone is assuming that the "SE" v-rod is CVO that basically gives us 5 bikes for 1 model year. so in that sense it doesnt seem very exclusive. i havent seem any anticipated production numbers i'm hopeful that more models means less of each keeping total CVO production from increasing. i'd be willing to bet that more 06 SEUC's were built last year then all CVO's built for 02. production has increased steadily since CVO started in 99. i know its basic economics people want them so they make them, i'd just like to see them stay exclusive

[RedFXR2]

The only ones that are emotionally attached to a CVO bike, or any bike for that matter, are us.  The only thing that makes the CVO special to HD is the price/profit margin.  It's just business.

In 2006, HD made only 3500, individually numbered, 35th anniversary Superglides with specific paint jobs.  That's fewer bikes and more attention paid to production numbers (the serialized commemorative plate) than the CVO bikes.  IMO, the CVO has become more a profit center than the home of true custom bikes.

CVO bikes are really just production models, anyway, with unique paint and a large set menu of accessories.  It's not like you can't buy an Ultra, Fat Boy, Road King, Deuce, Dyna, or whatever without going to the CVO lineup.  Even the engine kits can be had from the dealer, so to me, the best thing about a CVO version is this:  If a buyer is going to get those accessories, anyway, and wants the larger motor from the beginning, and likes the paint jobs, then they might save some money and time by getting the CVO version at the outset.

Remember that survey that we got here a while back?  The one thing I harped on to Harley was to return to a truly special lineup of truly limited edition bikes--not available anywhere else within HD.  I'm talking frame design and motor, as well as paint and accessories.  They're not going to do it, of course--(costs too much and from the business/sales perspective why should they?), but IMO, that's what I'd like to see.

But I agree with you that HD seems to not be putting as much "custom" into the lineup as they should.  Too many models, too many made of each model, paint jobs that aren't up to what a buyer can get from HD themselves (in much more limited quantities--therefore more unique and "special") and parts and accessories from the same catalog as is available to the general public.

But hey, we were all sitting here frothing at the mouth for days and weeks waiting to see what the 2007 lineup would look like, so don't look for anything to change.  If anything, HD will make more CVO's, maybe a CVO version of each model line, even the Sportster, and just make them the top of the line models, dropping all pretense at limited numbers and custom vehicles.  Maybe if they did that, the CVO line could be maintained as a true custom shop, making only a few hundred, truly custom bikes per year.

Again, it's just business.

[grc]

naitram,

I agree, it looks like the economics are driving H-D to keep pushing the CVO volumes up and up.  I can see a time coming very soon where they will be just another model designation (ie. Standard, Custom, Ultra, CVO) and will be built on the same lines as the regular bikes.  While the customer will lose some of the exclusivity and resale value, incorporating the CVO's into regular production would probably improve the overall build quality.

Jerry

[WFP]

i added a 3rd option to your poll. ...

True and thanks, I always forget that there is a statistical probability that a coin could land on it's edge!



I do not believe that I bought my 2006 CVO Ultra to be different, in fact I think part of the reason I bought it was that I would still belong to [highlight]THIS[/highlight] CVO Family...it is hard to buy something different when you consider how many of the same bikes there really are...Neal, remember there were THREE Purple SERKS at Crazy Horse!  So I tend to dismiss the notion that we buy these bikes to be different.  In many ways, a Vivid Black Ultra modified by the owner is more likely to be unique than a CVO Ultra.

I agree with  RedFXR2 it is about the money to HD and the passion to us...but will we be as passionate with the direction that HD is heading.

I can see an end to the current version of the CVO myself...especially if you can start to custom order your bikes from the factory in the near future.  I myself am wondering if my next touring bike will be a CVO...I can see more potential taking a stock Electra-Glide and completely modifying it painting it and adding engine performance enhancements that would be more "custom".

As mentioned, HD does not even NUMBER these CVOs...my HD Ford F-350 has a number...that little piece of uniqueness would go a long way to change my opinion.

/Bill

[RedFXR2]

As mentioned, HD does not even NUMBER these CVOs...my HD Ford F-350 has a number...that little piece of uniqueness would go a long way to change my opinion.

I have always wondered why HD didn't individually number the CVO bikes with some sort of decorative plate.  It would seem like an obvious thing to do and they have done it with others (non-CVO's) in the past.

But I guess they don't have to.

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Oh COME ON guys ..its called "Marketing" .... creating a "Desire" ..and a sence of "urgency" ...quite simply its the art of selling ... the same thing that happend to Toyota in the 70's and 80's when you were lucky if you could find one in any other color then yellow sitting on a lot  ...now look at them they are one of the largest car whores in the country .. HDMC is headed that way ...and will use any tool they have to get the numbers up including whoring out the CVO's ... the upside to this as I see it is that the truly limited CVO's ... prior to 06 ...will retain a very good resale as they will be collectables in years to come .. JMO .... I think HDMC will go back to "limited" production on the CVO when pigs can fly ... I worked in sells for Harley in 03 ..we were sent a memo from HDMC in Nov. of 02 telling us that the silver and black was truly going to be limited and that all we could expect in the two tone was what we had been allocated to that point ...no more ..WELL GUESS WHAT ...THEY LIED ..we had silver and black "LIMITED" bikes running out our ears ...and we told our customers when they bought a sliver and black that it was going to be EXTREAMLY limited and a GREAT investment ... was that ever a lie .. to cut to the chase ... less quality more profit .. E.C.O.N.O.M.I.C.S.101 ...10 years from now we may see "Made in China" on our Hogs ...

Bama

[WFP]

.. ..we had silver and black "LIMITED" bikes running out our ears ...

Bama

But I still think that the Silver makes those Silver/Blacks look great!  It had a great luster...unlike the Crimson Milky Way I have...

[Fired00d]

As you can probably tell, I had a bad day at work yesterday...left late and stopped for a couple of  [smiley=drink.gif] on the way home.  Needed to think of something other than work...the above is what I came up with...

/Bill

You should have  had more beers seems like you created more stress for yourself.

I do agree w/you however they are mass-producing a "limited edition factory custom" to the extreme. This year to have two CVO's in the touring line up to me just screams greedy.

...... i havent seem any anticipated production numbers i'm hopeful that more models means less of each keeping total CVO production from increasing. i'd be willing to bet that more 06 SEUC's were built last year then all CVO's built for 02. production has increased steadily since CVO started in 99. i know its basic economics people want them so they make them, i'd just like to see them stay exclusive

The purest that we are, are hoping the number per model will drop (especially since they have so many CVO models to choose from), but those that get the big bonus checks at the end of year are probably saying build, build, build until they quit buying.

The only ones that are emotionally attached to a CVO bike, or any bike for that matter, are us.  The only thing that makes the CVO special to HD is the price/profit margin.  It's just business........

That's because we love the bikes for what they are and not for how much money we can make off them.

....As mentioned, HD does not even NUMBER these CVOs...my HD Ford F-350 has a number...that little piece of uniqueness would go a long way to change my opinion.

/Bill

Wouldn't that be a nice touch to have a plaque stating this is scooter "#X of XXXX"? To do that they are going to have to let the public know how many of this particular model they are gong to produce none of this "approximate" stuff we are seeing now. I always thought when I saw that this was vague and if the demand was still there after they had already produced that number they could keep on producing.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Midnight Rider]

Well thank goodness they didn't quit until they got "6666" built!!!  I think they did build a few "extras" towards the end of they year...when I was looking in Jan/Feb, they didn't know if they would get any more or not, then by the end of Feb early March, most of the higher volume dealers had either one or two more coming before the end of June.  I think I got the last one Mobile HD got for the year, and the two larger dealers here got 3 Haze's and 2 BCCS's

I still think they are "unique" bikes simply because even if they built 4500+ Ultras last year, I'm still not gonna' see myself coming and going when I'm traveling down the road.  The whole time I was in NC a few weekends ago, I only saw one other BCCS, a red bike, a Pumkin, and a B&B. And there were a BUNCH of scoots up there over the 4th.  Yeah, you can take a stock bike and make it into whatever you want, which is a great thing to do, but the CVO bikes will still be different simply because they already come with so much of the stuff those of us with OCD/AR/MPD want...not that they have it all, mind you, but it's pretty close, and allows to imediately start thinking about such things as CAMS, GEAR DRIVES, OIL PUMPS, WHIZ DIZZ ELECTRONICAL STUFF...not to mention thongs, hats, and other fun stuff.  They'll never make so many of them that they won't be special.

If it weren't for the CVO bikes, this would just be a site for "HD's with a lot of Chit on 'em", like some others,  and none of us would have met!!

[Twolanerider]

Should be one more poll option.  Should be yes, no, undecided and "don't care."  It'd be for those of us that like what we got and don't give a flip what the MoCo did afterwards.

[KentuckyHarleyDude]

Should be one more poll option.  Should be yes, no, undecided and "don't care."  It'd be for those of us that like what we got and don't give a flip what the MoCo did afterwards.

Two I think you just hit the nail square on the head ...

Bama

[BobD]

CVO bikes are really just production models, anyway, with unique paint and a large set menu of accessories.  It's not like you can't buy an Ultra, Fat Boy, Road King, Deuce, Dyna, or whatever without going to the CVO lineup.  Even the engine kits can be had from the dealer, so to me, the best thing about a CVO version is this:  If a buyer is going to get those accessories, anyway, and wants the larger motor from the beginning, and likes the paint jobs, then they might save some money and time by getting the CVO version at the outset.

My sentiments exactly. Who ever said CVO stood for "limited" production or "collectible"? When I bought my CUSE I saw it as a factory assembly of various performance and appearance options all tied to a production chassis. I did the math and knew that if individually purchased, the various motor and chrome upgrades would total far more than the dealers asking price for the CVO. In my mind, that justified my decision to buy my CUSE rather than a Street glide to which I would have undertaken similar upgrades at greater expense. No one at the dealership ever lead me to believe CVO meant more resale value, limited production numbers or any other traits attributed to "special productions models".
If I were the MOCO, I'd build as many high option machines as their channel partners (dealers) can sell. Higher optioned machines mean higher margins which will translate into a stronger SVA (Stockholder Value Added) factor. That means Wall Street is happy and they have the capital to build motorcycles for another year.
That's my opinion and I encourage you to differ.  [smiley=soapbox.gif]