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[1abastarsmda]

One of my friends was thinking about having the Harley 110 Upgrade Kit installed.  From what I read on here, I got the distinct impression that the majority feels the kit is a waste of money, that performance gains are minimal, and that it loses some of the low-end torque we have with the 255 cams.  This is on a 2012 SEUC, by the way.  When I told him this, he wanted to know what he would end up with if he kept the 255 cams and just had the high compression pistons installed.

The dealer told him they would install the entire kit and dynotune his bike for $1000, parts included.  It sounds to me like they aren't charging for the dyno at that price.  Anyway, I know that what he wants to do is get some performance gains without going overboard.  He's not going to have the heads sent off for porting or start changing out other parts.  He's looking for a quick boost that won't break the bank.

His last SEUC was an 08 that he purchased used, and it had at least a different cam in it that we could somewhat confirm.  We think it was an S&S cam and he was running with around 99HP and 105TQ from my recollection.  He had D&D 2-1 on the old bike, and on this new one he has Vance & Hines Hi Output Slip Ons and V&H Power Duals.  I think he had it dyno'd at 89HP and I don't know the TQ.  I think that what he is looking to do is get this one running just like the last one or a little better.

Any thoughts on what I should tell him?  I don't think warranty should be a big issue for him, since he doesn't really go on any trips on the bike.  His normal riding is usually up to 350 miles in a day round trip, so he's never that far from the dealer.  As long as the dealer will take care of him, I think he should be okay in that regard.

[Supershooter]

I may stay with a cam, the right bolt cam can wake up a motor to levels seen in the 08 that he was riding.
Supershooter

[Midnight Rider]

You can get better numbers on TQ from just a exhaust change and canned tune...  What is he wanting to achieve?

[Fed68]

One of my friends was thinking about having the Harley 110 Upgrade Kit installed.  From what I read on here, I got the distinct impression that the majority feels the kit is a waste of money, that performance gains are minimal, and that it loses some of the low-end torque we have with the 255 cams.  This is on a 2012 SEUC, by the way.  When I told him this, he wanted to know what he would end up with if he kept the 255 cams and just had the high compression pistons installed.

The dealer told him they would install the entire kit and dynotune his bike for $1000, parts included.  It sounds to me like they aren't charging for the dyno at that price.  Anyway, I know that what he wants to do is get some performance gains without going overboard.  He's not going to have the heads sent off for porting or start changing out other parts.  He's looking for a quick boost that won't break the bank.

His last SEUC was an 08 that he purchased used, and it had at least a different cam in it that we could somewhat confirm.  We think it was an S&S cam and he was running with around 99HP and 105TQ from my recollection.  He had D&D 2-1 on the old bike, and on this new one he has Vance & Hines Hi Output Slip Ons and V&H Power Duals.  I think he had it dyno'd at 89HP and I don't know the TQ.  I think that what he is looking to do is get this one running just like the last one or a little better.

Any thoughts on what I should tell him?  I don't think warranty should be a big issue for him, since he doesn't really go on any trips on the bike.  His normal riding is usually up to 350 miles in a day round trip, so he's never that far from the dealer.  As long as the dealer will take care of him, I think he should be okay in that regard.

I dont have any answers for you yet, but my buddies and I just finished installing this kit today.  At this point all I can say is that it sounds really good.  My buddy has to finish tuning it, and unfortunately we're hitting winter so I don't how quick I'll even be able to ride it to break it in so he can finish the tuning.  I am very antsy to get it on the road to see what it does.

[grc]

First, I don't know where that dealership is coming up with their price, but since the kit alone retails for $1260 I seriously doubt they were really giving him a valid price at $1000 including labor and tune.  So I don't think he should even consider proceeding until they put the full detailed price in writing.  Parts kit, labor for install, labor for full dyno tune (as opposed to just loading the canned map Harley has), etc.  I'll bet what they really meant by that $1000 comment was that would be the labor they would charge on top of the kit price.

As for losing torque down low, if it's tuned right there should be a very minimal loss at the lowest useable rpm but a substantial increase from 3000 rpm up, with the peak around 4000.  Harley claims approximately 110 torque and 104 horsepower.  If your buddy likes to wind it out without having the power fall off the table over 4000 rpm, he might like this kit.  If he just rides at low rpm 99% of the time, he may decide he wasted the money. 

Btw, definitely do not bump the compression if staying with the stock 255 cams.  It won't improve performance, and it will likely turn the bike into a  ping monster.

Jerry

[lilcoot]

"The dealer told him they would install the entire kit and dynotune his bike for $1000, parts included."

I don't know where you could find a stealer that could even install pipes and a SERT with a dyno tune for $1000, let alone a 110 kit.  The $1000 quote may have been for labor or (discounted) parts, but not both.  And as for a dyno tune, I'd bet the farm that they meant that they'd install a canned map and MAYBE a run on the dyno to check the numbers only.

"Btw, definitely do not bump the compression if staying with the stock 255 cams.  It won't improve performance, and it will likely turn the bike into a  ping monster."

I hate to point out your error, but I was told that it's ALWAYS a good idea the bump up the compression, the more, the better.  It has to be true, because I was told this by a 20 y/o guy at the parts counter at a large HD dealership.    

[1abastarsmda]

First, I don't know where that dealership is coming up with their price, but since the kit alone retails for $1260 I seriously doubt they were really giving him a valid price at $1000 including labor and tune.  So I don't think he should even consider proceeding until they put the full detailed price in writing.  Parts kit, labor for install, labor for full dyno tune (as opposed to just loading the canned map Harley has), etc.  I'll bet what they really meant by that $1000 comment was that would be the labor they would charge on top of the kit price.

Jerry

I talked to my friend and the dealer is removing the price of the race tuner from the kit, since he has one already, and they are offering a free dyno with the purchase and installation of all stage kits right now.  He is also getting 20% off on the purchase of the kit.  I do believe that his price is accurate now.  It actually sounds like a pretty darned good deal if you want one of the packaged kits.  I know that I talked to another local dealer about the kits coming with the race tuner and I was told that they just deduct the price of the tuner, give it to parts, and they sell it retail.  That leaves it that they are just being very good with their pricing on labor to install the kit.  I guess that's what they have to do to stay busy during the winter months up her in PA. 

[110tHunDer]

 
If he's getting everything for $1000, it'd be hard to say "no" to it.  Do a search here, there are a few guys that have done this upgrade with good results.  For a grand, I think it's a no-brainer .... unless your friend is ultimately looking for more HP and TQ than what this kit is going to provide.

[Fed68]

Does anyone know if our bikes already has the clutch spring in them that comes in this kit?

[Kingspoke]

Man, that is a great deal!  If they do good work, I would be all in!  I like where the bike comes on with this package, but I suspect most don't.  I was told by my local indy they could put a 4 degree advance gear to shift the torque a little more to the left.  I believe Moco would have to cover warranty issues as well with this kit, since it is a HD product and installed by HD.

[grc]

Man, that is a great deal!  If they do good work, I would be all in!  I like where the bike comes on with this package, but I suspect most don't.  I was told by my local indy they could put a 4 degree advance gear to shift the torque a little more to the left.  I believe Moco would have to cover warranty issues as well with this kit, since it is a HD product and installed by HD.

Perhaps in Europe, where warranty laws are significantly different, but not in the USA.  That kit is sold as a non-street legal racing only kit.  Therefore it CAN be used as an excuse to void warranty coverage.  It all depends on what actually fails and whether or not a dealer or H-D itself wants to be a hard azz.  But of course that also applies to a whole lot of other mods folks do to their Harley's.  I guess if someone is really all that worried about warranty they could just leave the bike stock for the first two years, but that still won't protect them from ignorant dealerships (everything's normal) or Harley's ridiculous tolerances and policies.

Personally, I'd be willing to fight H-D if they tried to void a warranty for minor mods.  But once you start doing internal mods, the warranty waters become a whole lot murkier.  They couldn't legitimately void the warranty for unrelated components like the electrical stuff or the paint, but the powertrain items could all be fair game for the warranty police.  It's a very good idea when having a dealer do this sort of modification to get a written and signed agreement that they will stand behind the warranty if H-D won't. 

Jerry

[Kingspoke]

I understand your concerns, which are well stated.  I also agree If one wants to totally eliminate worries over the modification perhaps they should just let their current warranty expire before that type of modification.

I do think that Moco would be hard pressed too win the sympathy of the court when it's their components, and their dealership doing the install.  Not to mention the negative publicity when Moco and everyone else knows that modifications have been occuring routinely as a past practice or pattern in that regard.  I'm gonna sell you this kit (wink, wink) but don't install it on your street bike.  Not to mention that because Moco sells this excessively hot Twin Cam design that the vast majority of purchasers modify their exhaust to get relief from the heat.

Harley would be more likely to settle in such a case than chase off their customers imo.

[roadking53]

I was given an estimate of 1750 for that that kit installed by the dealer. I went a different route for a variety of reasons.

[bikerboy53]

One of my friends was thinking about having the Harley 110 Upgrade Kit installed.  From what I read on here, I got the distinct impression that the majority feels the kit is a waste of money, that performance gains are minimal, and that it loses some of the low-end torque we have with the 255 cams.  This is on a 2012 SEUC, by the way.  When I told him this, he wanted to know what he would end up with if he kept the 255 cams and just had the high compression pistons installed.

The dealer told him they would install the entire kit and dynotune his bike for $1000, parts included.  It sounds to me like they aren't charging for the dyno at that price.  Anyway, I know that what he wants to do is get some performance gains without going overboard.  He's not going to have the heads sent off for porting or start changing out other parts.  He's looking for a quick boost that won't break the bank.

His last SEUC was an 08 that he purchased used, and it had at least a different cam in it that we could somewhat confirm.  We think it was an S&S cam and he was running with around 99HP and 105TQ from my recollection.  He had D&D 2-1 on the old bike, and on this new one he has Vance & Hines Hi Output Slip Ons and V&H Power Duals.  I think he had it dyno'd at 89HP and I don't know the TQ.  I think that what he is looking to do is get this one running just like the last one or a little better.

Any thoughts on what I should tell him?  I don't think warranty should be a big issue for him, since he doesn't really go on any trips on the bike.  His normal riding is usually up to 350 miles in a day round trip, so he's never that far from the dealer.  As long as the dealer will take care of him, I think he should be okay in that regard.

I used a set of 10.1:1 pistons and the SE 251 cams (similar to the 259E) a few years ago in my SERK. It puts out 106 HP, but I don't remember the torque numbers -maybe somewhere in the 110 to 115 ft-lbs range? (Remember that all dynos "lie" to some extent tho...) I'm running a set of Rinehart True Duals, and I did notice some loss of low end torque. It's definitely more fun to ride now though. It's possible that the 2-1-2 pipes your friend is running could reduce the loss of low end torque. Overall I am happy with the way it runs now -you need to keep a firm grip on the handlebars when you open it up!

It is sort of a crap shoot though, because everyone has a different idea of what they would like their motor to do. It sounds like it's sort of a package deal from the dealership? With a little research, you might be able to find cams that don't give up a lot of low end torque, but still have a little better mid range and top end. But if this is the deal that's being offered, then he probably has to live with the cam choice.

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Perhaps in Europe, where warranty laws are significantly different, but not in the USA.  That kit is sold as a non-street legal racing only kit.  Therefore it CAN be used as an excuse to void warranty coverage.  It all depends on what actually fails and whether or not a dealer or H-D itself wants to be a hard azz.  But of course that also applies to a whole lot of other mods folks do to their Harley's.  I guess if someone is really all that worried about warranty they could just leave the bike stock for the first two years, but that still won't protect them from ignorant dealerships (everything's normal) or Harley's ridiculous tolerances and policies.

Personally, I'd be willing to fight H-D if they tried to void a warranty for minor mods.  But once you start doing internal mods, the warranty waters become a whole lot murkier.  They couldn't legitimately void the warranty for unrelated components like the electrical stuff or the paint, but the powertrain items could all be fair game for the warranty police.  It's a very good idea when having a dealer do this sort of modification to get a written and signed agreement that they will stand behind the warranty if H-D won't. 

Jerry

Yep.
Any product with the "crossed flags" denotes for racing.
They can duck out under that.
Scott