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[Heatwave]

I think most can see through the marketing hype once they have an understanding of what can and does happen in the field. The PV, SESPT, SEST and others all can tune a bike. Its just a matter of what your looking for. All of the supposed new features have been in Mastertune all along but we do use a PC and some do not like that. We understand that, and know it's not for everyone but with that said it's also a joke when these others come along and claim a new feature when all they did was to add a feature from Mastertune to what they were already selling. Not new but new to them.

Heatwave

As for tuning Open Loop with a PV automatically, that's just more marketing hype. When in open loop the ECM only issues the programmed information and no corrections are being made. There is no feedback to the ECM to correct it. What can be done is to apply what you learned in Closed loop to the Open loop area and that has been in Mastertune since it was released to the public in 2008. Again not a new feature but it  maybe new to PV. While I do not use the PV daily I have used it and there is more to it than pushing just one button as you describe and if your going to create a base calibration you still need to use a PC to load it into the PV unit itself. While you can do some tuning from the PV itself it still has it's limits then your back to the PC again. Its a nice unit and has its place but donot for a moment think it can do what Mastertune is capable of doing.

I would typically never refute what you say Steve, as you know far more about tuning and software than I'll ever know. But in this one case you are incorrect on one point. The point being the methodology that the PV uses for autotuning outside of the closed loop area of a map or even a map that is entirely open-loop. Specifically, the PV changes the current map in ALL AFR cells to be closed loop. It then automatically reduces the entire spark table for both front and rear cylinders by 4 degrees. The PV then uses data from riding to modify the VE's in ALL cells for both the front and rear cylinders. It can also adjust the spark table as well but only by reducing spark (not increasing). Once the VE cells have been modified, the PV puts the 4 degrees back in, returns the AFR tables to their original settings and reloads the revised map. All these steps are invisible to the user as its all automated.

This approach to auto-tuning is entirely different from your software and SEPST. Only a side-by-side comparison on a dyno could determine which autotune approach performs better however neither TTS or SEPST can auto-tune in the open-loop section of the map with stock O2 sensors.

And the PV autotune is very close to a 1-button approach. Press a button to "auto-tune", ride the bike in this mode. hit the update button, flash the newly created map to the ECM and ride off with the new map. That is a fact and can't be refuted as I've done it many times on my own bike.

TTS is a pioneer in the world of HD tuning and I would never talk negative of it, particularly because I've never used it (unless you consider my tuning with SEPST to be the same). But technology advances and I'm sure the PV will be surpassed by "something" down the road. But for now, if ease of Auto-tuning across all regions of a bike's operating range with stock O2 sensors is of importance to the bike owner, then there is no product on the market today which matches the PV. As you pointed out, not everyone has this requirement and if having a laptop hooked up to your bike is a non-issue and you're only planning to tune in the closed-loop range of a bike's map, then TTS will deliver just as good a result as any other tuning software.

[Steve Cole]

The idea of placing the entire calibration in Closed Loop is taken right out of the Mastertune/Vtune manual. So I guess we are talking in slightly different terms, as to me that is tuning in closed loop which is what Mastertune has done from day one. By reducing the timing you are also changing the fuel requirements of the engine so that is something that PV took from the SESPT as that is just what HD did when they came out with there version of Vtune. Smartune as HD calls it does the exact same thing (closed loop and -4 degrees) before PV was around and Mastertune did it before anyone. PV just added the portable screen to the mix, so no new ideas just tweaks to what was done by someone else. So your statement that there is no one close to PV is completely in error as it is no different than what Mastertune/Vtune does today and what it has done since day one except for the portable screen. Maybe you were misinformed as to what and how we did it or how HD did it but the PV is just a copy of a copy.

As for the PV when you get it you still need to use a PC to modify the calibration as the PV itself only does limited functions, but once you load it you can do those limited functions by going through the various screens and pushing the buttons. Just a different way to get there. No right or wrong just different.

I personally have no problem with people having choices but let's at least get straight who did what and when.

[Heatwave]

The idea of placing the entire calibration in Closed Loop is taken right out of the Mastertune/Vtune manual. So I guess we are talking in slightly different terms, as to me that is tuning in closed loop which is what Mastertune has done from day one. By reducing the timing you are also changing the fuel requirements of the engine so that is something that PV took from the SESPT as that is just what HD did when they came out with there version of Vtune. Smartune as HD calls it does the exact same thing (closed loop and -4 degrees) before PV was around and Mastertune did it before anyone. PV just added the portable screen to the mix, so no new ideas just tweaks to what was done by someone else. So your statement that there is no one close to PV is completely in error as it is no different than what Mastertune/Vtune does today and what it has done since day one except for the portable screen. Maybe you were misinformed as to what and how we did it or how HD did it but the PV is just a copy of a copy.

As for the PV when you get it you still need to use a PC to modify the calibration as the PV itself only does limited functions, but once you load it you can do those limited functions by going through the various screens and pushing the buttons. Just a different way to get there. No right or wrong just different.

I personally have no problem with people having choices but let's at least get straight who did what and when.

I used Smarttune alot and it did not change the AFRs across the ENTIRE map, plus automatically reduce spark advance 4 degrees in ALL areas of the map and then return the maps to their original state after updating was complete. All without the user's involvement.

Does Mastertune enable a user to autotune the VE tables AUTOMATICALLY in the 3500-6500rpm range and the 60-100kPa range of the map using the stock O2 sensors? If the answer is yes than I stand corrected and MasterTune can in fact autotune as "completely" as the PV's autotune method. The primary difference would then be in the conveneince (laptop vs no laptop) and not in the actual outcome of the auto-tune. If Mastertune does not automatically tune in these regions of the map with stock O2 sensors then there is clearly a difference in the autotuning outcome of the PV and Mastertune.

I do agree with your view that the PV is a copy of a copy (and possibly even of another copy if we include your SERT).

[Steve Cole]

If you reduce the spark you also change the fuel mixture by doing it, so what are you really tuning too? You tune to some numbers that you do not set up, then you change the timing, which changes the mixture and your tune is now wrong. This is how it really works and while tuning it to some number is better than nothing if the principles of tuning were understood properly people would know better. This is just why Mastertune does NOT reduce timing. While you can play all kinds of marketing for it, you need to tune with the proper spark and fuel to get it correct. Smartune does reduce the timing and it does put the calibration into Closed Loop operation with a the simple selection of Smart tune. While I have not look at every version they have out, the versions I looked at put the entire fuel map into Closed loop. That said Mastertune allows you to run Closed Loop from Idle to 6000 RPM and always has but it also allows you to run any combination you can dream up. With that said it doesn't do it for you as that is a user selection but it only takes a few seconds to set that up. We could have a preset combination but that defeats the purpose of tuning different combinations at different mixture levels and that is what is needed to do the job right. Not every engine or combination of parts wants or needs the same thing. All that said the concept and method for doing it has all been copied from Mastertune/Vtune product that we released in 2008 to the HD world. The whole Closed Loop autotune calibration method comes from our automotive line from back in 1988 so it's not new for us and we have had plenty of years of experience to learn what really works and where we made mistakes to have it to the level we have today.

When you try and copy what someone else has done and you donot have the understanding of how or why things were done it typically doesn't work out the same. Some things get marketed better and then it becomes something different than what it truely is and that is just what is going on with the PV at this point in time. It's a fine unit but there is not one original idea in it at all. If you want to see where it comes from take a small read of this site,  http://www.drewtech.com/enthusiast/index.html and it may open some eyes.

[Heatwave]

Well I guess you're saying Dynojet, the maker of the Powervision and almost every motorcycle dynometer, has no clue about tuning. All I know is the PV Autotuning has my engine running better than it ever has. I don't need a laptop strapped to my bike. And my bike's hardware (ecm) isn't locked out by the tuning software. There's enough information exchanged here for the reader to do some homework and make their own decision.

[ultraswede]

Does Mastertune enable a user to autotune the VE tables AUTOMATICALLY in the 3500-6500rpm range and the 60-100kPa range of the map using the stock O2 sensors?]

No it does not.


Is this possible with Power Vision?

[Heatwave]

No it does not.


Is this possible with Power Vision?

Yes. See post #45.

[Steve Cole]

Well I guess you're saying Dynojet, the maker of the Powervision and almost every motorcycle dynometer, has no clue about tuning. All I know is the PV Autotuning has my engine running better than it ever has. I don't need a laptop strapped to my bike. And my bike's hardware (ecm) isn't locked out by the tuning software. There's enough information exchanged here for the reader to do some homework and make their own decision.

I did not say that at all. What I said was there was no original ideas, which is a far cry from they know nothing about tuning. Its just a copy of what has been done by others before them with there marketing added. You made claims that they were the  only ones with certain features which is the only thing I had issue with. It requires a PC of some sort to use all it's functions same as everyone else and it does not Auto Tune as none of the current units on the market do that. Semi-auto sure they do that just as Mastertune, SESPT and SEST do. Auto Tune means you do nothing it does it automatically, you still have to interact with it to apply the changes that the ECM is making NOT PV, Mastertune or any of the others. I think that the discussion is good so that you and others can learn, I know I can always learn something from these discussions. I am glad your happy with it and as I said before it's a nice unit.

Equltrac

Sorry that someone did not get you your answers. With hundreds of dealers across the USA and Canada with many HD dealerships selling and installing Mastertune I think people can get serviced but very possible not in every town.

[timo482]

this is a illuminating. tts and sert are both designed for use at a shop - or by a very skilled owner - not by a non computer minded home user. the normal advice given is to get the tuner that your tuner person wants to use - this is obviously the most correct advice.

what pv is trying to do is go around the shops and sell to the casual user. its a viable strategy one that i might be interested in. however at this time the only reason to change tuner at all would be to be able to change the drive ratio so i could install a 30 tooth sprocket. ill cross that road when i NEED a new drive belt.

with all tuner devices there can be big trouble with dealers and warranty issues. depends on the luck of the draw. my dealer told me straight up - tuner - no warranty - period.  

the argument FOR pv is that its for the home user. trying to argue FOR pv by arguing against tts is simply silly. tts is doing what it says its doing for good reasons.

where trouble comes is when a home user with lots of cash starts changing things for change sake using professional tools without fully understanding what is going on. there are gotchas - one is forgetting to save a stock tune and installing tts and then wanting to install something else later - that will suck - as far as im concerned its the users fault for not reading and understanding the directions. if any of us make a mistake and ruin something ITS OUR OWN $ and there is no one to blame but ourselves.

what this discussion SHOULD be about is the relative merits of PV for the home user vs other tuners - thats a viable and worthwhile discussion. bashing tts for doing what it says it does is just nonsense. im interested in what PV can do for us - and how to hide PV when in for warranty work at the dealer.

those very few who can afford to spend the money to change tuners like a fashion accessory can afford to send the ecm back and have it wiped to stock for free.

i have now had 4 harleys and 2 jap bikes in 40 years of riding. the first two harleys got over 100k on them before i sold them. the two jap bikes i rode till they broke - a much shorter time than the rumors suggested they would last, the third harley i rode 30000 miles till it had "the cam bearing failure" and when faced with rebuild the whole engine or get a new bike i got the new bike - should have rebuilt the engine. the current bike has near 30 on it now and ill keep it for a number more years. i dont throw good money after bad, if i can help it, i research what i want - do that and live with it for several years. currently i run a street tuner - its very inexpensive [flea bay 75$ new] & does not affect warranty or the extended & so far deals with air cleaner and mufflers very well.

this site is extremely useful - provides all kinds of info on what the home fixer can actually do - and provides good reasons for sending it out when it should be. after the effects of the great recession my bike is now worth more than the car and truck put together, its worth more than my equity in my house, its probably worth more than the sheep skin on the wall....... - my main concern is not breaking something, yet riding all the decent weather i can. and when something does need work - i do the repair / upgrade to make it LAST.

i have two holes in the belt - eventually, there will be a belt - and a 30 tooth - and a swing arm mod to use the stock belt - then try and make the spedo work right. so ill read each and every tuner thread so what when the belt breaks ill know exactly what to get and from who.

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