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[CVOThunder]

Curious if the Power Vision is Dynojets version of the Cobra Power Pro. Sounds like similar functions but I haven't looked into the PV.

[grc]

Curious if the Power Vision is Dynojets version of the Cobra Power Pro. Sounds like similar functions but I haven't looked into the PV.

No, not even close.  The PV is a real tuning solution that flashes the stock ECM and allows for user adjustment of many operating variables, while the Cobra is a nonadjustable add-on box that leaves you totally at the mercy of whoever programmed the thing when they made it (one size fits all, except we all know it doesn't really).

Jerry

[Steve Cole]

Interesting how facts are considered BS by those that have vested interest in the outcome. I have no financial stake in any of these products.  Which makes it quite interesting to read the twists and turns others make that have a commercial interest.

My view was simply stated from the beginning. A dyno tune is a waste for a guy just looking to tune a stock bike that has had the cat removed (OP). Having used Sepst extensively as we'll as the Powervision, I find the PV to be a superior and simpler auto tuning device. I find strapping a laptop to a bike to be a outmoded method for Autotuning a bike given the alternatives.

These facts are hardly BS or Koolaid. The readers can reach their own conclusions and also see who has a vested stake and who doesn't.

Ok I will byte. I have a vested interest in telling the truth about products and letting the customer make his own decision. You are stating your personal opinion and that's fine but most of it is just that...... your opinion as most of it is NOT factually true.

PV will not and does not Auto Tune anymore or less than TTS or SESPT does, Fact not opinion
PV still requires the use of a laptop or PC, Fact not opinion
PV has ~ a 2.5" x 1.9" display, Fact not opinion
A typical cellphone today has ~ a 3.7" x 2.0" display or larger, Fact not opinion
Reading a cell phone display out doors in the sun light is still a bitch as is a PV display, Fact not opinion
TTS does require the use of a laptop to collect data, Fact not opinion
SESPT doesNOT require a laptop to collect data, Fact not opinion
TTS developed brought the tuning method to the HD industry and PV and SESPT copied it, Fact not opinion
TTS still today collects more data quicker and more accurately than PV or SESPT, Fact not opinion
TTS still today provided more adjust-ability than PV or SESPT, Fact not opinion

As I've said before it's like going to the store to buy a tool box. You can spend all your money and a great looking box with no tools inside or you can buy all the tools one could need and put them in a not so nice box. TTS provides more tools for the customer to do the job than all the others combine. Are they all needed....... not all the time but it sure is a bitch when you need one and do not have it, then it's back to the store to buy another.

You like your PV and it works for you, that's fine but let's keep the facts of the devices straight so other do not have to wade through all the BS

[Heatwave]

Honesty can be hard to find but research will provide the confirmation.

PV does NOT require a laptop for Autotuning or Quicktuning. Anyone suggesting otherwise is purposely misguiding others and should be considered suspect.

TTS and SEPST absolutely require a laptop for ANY type of tuning whether auto or manual. This is a distinct disadvantage in my opinion. TTS has the added disadvantage of needing a laptop for not only auto or manual tuning but it also requires safely carrying and connecting a laptop to the bike for data logging which IMO can also be considered a safety issue.

The PV includes its own display and touchscreen which I have used on 3000 mile trips as well as 20 mile local trips Its an excellent display and from my perspective I would not want it to be any larger. While it generally has an excellent display it could benefit from a brighter display on the most bright days when the sun is directly on the screen.

As far as tuning approaches are concerned I would ALWAYS prefer a tuning product that includes a display vs one that doesn't. The tuner that doesn't include a display is only half a product in my opinion.

[lilcoot]

IrishSE, the bottom line is this:  There are a dozen products out there that will do what you want, and I bet you'll be satisfied with nearly all of them, unless you're chasing numbers on the dyno.  Everybody here is correct in that every one of these devices will change the amount of fuel injected into the cylinders, and it comes down to personal opinion which is "best" for you.

Vance and Hines has the Throttlepak that you can find online for about $150, and the feedback on it is generally very positive.  The Power Vision with auto tune is $800(?) and works very well, and has some great features that make it really appealing.

The Cobra PowrPro was a big improvement over the stock ECM settings, period.  But it wasn't perfect, and can't be adjusted at all, which makes it a poor choice for most folks.  For Cobra to call it an auto tuner is absurd and misleading, and the customer support from Cobra is abysmal.  I won't be buying anything from them again for that reason alone.

TTS and SEPT are the best options if you want to fine tune your bike on a dynamometer (and the PC-V).  But they are also great options for you because there are hundreds of maps out there that can be installed by a vendor like Fullsac, Metal Dragon (hd_dude), Doc's Performance, etc., when you buy the tuner.  They can be updated if you're not happy with the base map, or if you decide to modify your bike in the future.  There are lots of shops that have experience with these, and the prices are reasonable: $350-$450.  A dynotune will run an additional $300-$700, and I've heard stories about people doing horrible jobs tuning with a SERT, TTS, and PC-V, so there's no guarantee that a dynotune will make your bike run better than a good base map.

My personal opinion?  Get the TTS with a base map from one of the vendors here.  You'll be able to get all the help and answers you need here, and it will run better than the Throttlepak or PowrPro (but you might not be able to tell the difference in the real world, anyway).  Plus you have the option of upgrading in the future.

Whatever you do, you'll be fine, and just go out and enjoy your bike.     Let the obsessive/compulsives and experts argue about the minutiae.

[Heatwave]

Not sure where you're getting your PV pricing from but it's well under $500 which includes a pretty extensive library of maps.

[Charlie]

I use the SEPST and am very happy with it!
Several members of our MC use the TTS and wouldn't change it for anything!
One thing i can say is, i know of 3 mates who went for the Cobra and have all now all changed over to the SEPST!
Only reason the SEPST is more popular than the TTS in Dubai is the best tuner out hear prefers to use it! hes used to them!
Speak to your tuner of choice, he will advise you what to go for.

[Charlie]

Not sure where you're getting your PV pricing from but it's well under $500 which includes a pretty extensive library of maps.

I looked at the PV myself and it comes well over $500 when you go for the autotune!

[lilcoot]

Yes, the PC-V alone is less than $500, as I inferred in the fourth paragraph.  It's my understanding that the auto tune is a separate unit that costs and additional $300.  I may be mistaken.

Don't worry, Heatwave, I'm on your side on this debate.  The bottom line is that all of these devices change the AF ratio going into the combustion chamber, and I'm pretty sure the motor doesn't give a rat's arse which device is being used.  That's the bike owner's decision.

For what IRISHSE describes, I would just recommend the TTS from my personal experience, based on price, support here, and tuning potential.  The ThrottlePak, PC-V, Tmax, or Fi2000 are all fine options, too, IMHO.

I always like these discussions, because I always learn something interesting and useful.  Jerry and Steve are worth their weights in gold, even if they don't always say what I want to hear.

[Heatwave]

I looked at the PV myself and it comes well over $500 when you go for the autotune!

Basic autotune is free and included with the PV. If you want Pro tuning which includes WB O2 sensors there is an additional charge but Basic autotuning is free.  Given the extensive library of PV maps, unless you have an exotic build I think most builds can be autotuned quite well with the stock O2 sensors and the PV's Autotuning algorithyms.

[Charlie]

Basic autotune is free and included with the PV. If you want Pro tuning which includes WB O2 sensors there is an additional charge but Basic autotuning is free.  Given the extensive library of PV maps, unless you have an exotic build I think most builds can be autotuned quite well with the stock O2 sensors and the PV's Autotuning algorithyms.

As a novice in this matter, how does the basic autotune on the PV differ from the autotune facility on the SEPST?

[Heatwave]

As a novice in this matter, how does the basic autotune on the PV differ from the autotune facility on the SEPST?

Similar in that they both collect data while riding and then modify the VE tables to make a new map.

Different in the methodology. PV drops spark 4 degrees across the entire map, modifies the map AFR to closed loop and adjusts VEs across entire map. SEPST autotune does not make these changes therefore it can only Autotune below 3500rpms and below 60KPa.

The other big difference with the SEPST is that you must collect your riding data on a key, disconnect from the bike, connect to a laptop, autotune using the SEPSt, download back to memory key, reconnect to bike, then flash the new map to the ECM.

Lastly there's no display unit with the SEPST. There is with the PV.

[Steve Cole]

Similar in that they both collect data while riding and then modify the VE tables to make a new map.

Different in the methodology. PV drops spark 4 degrees across the entire map, modifies the map AFR to closed loop and adjusts VEs across entire map. SEPST autotune does not make these changes therefore it can only Autotune below 3500rpms and below 60KPa.

The other big difference is that you must collect your riding data on a key, disconnect from the bike, connect to a laptop, autotune using the SEPSt, download back to memory key, reconnect to bike, then flash the new map to the ECM.

Lastly there's no display unit with the SEPST. There is with the PV.

Again, your OPINION as your wrong in the FACTS.

SESPT is the one who started with dropping the timing by 4 degrees and PV copied it.
SESPT tunes all the way to 100 kPa, idle to 7000 RPM as well.
SESPT was doing it before there was a PV as well

SESPT does things different than the PV but who says that its right or the PV way is right?
If you want to use Pro method in the PV a LAPTOP IS REQUIRED

Seems like someone has an agenda here

Now lets talk about why you would tune the fuel mixture with the WRONG timing being used. As you adjust fuel delivery, timing plays a HUGE roll in how that fuel is being burned and that in and of itself is the reason just why you NEVER want to tune with the wrong timing in place. Just to take a wild a$$ guess and pull 4 degrees is flatout wrong and should not be done. It is a combination of proper timing and fuel delivery that gives you the smoothest running, best fuel economy, along with best Torque and Horsepower. This is NOT an opinion but the fact of how it works. You can change how YOU do it but that still does not change the facts.

[grc]

Not sure where you're getting your PV pricing from but it's well under $500 which includes a pretty extensive library of maps.

From the Power Vision website:

PV-1 or PV-2 Kit         $549.00
Autotune Pro Kit         $420.00
          Total:             $969.00*

*Extras required on late models with 12mm heated O₂ sensors are new 18mm bungs for the wideband sensors and the labor to install them to the pipes.  Not included in the above pricing.

Yes, I know you can forgo the wideband Pro kit and supposedly do the basic "auto tune" with the stock sensors.  Since narrow band sensors aren't very accurate once you stray from the stoichiometric mixture, this is obviously not the ultimate setup.

This price is comparable to the other widely known "auto tune" solution from Thunder Max btw.  You are basically looking at $900+ at SRP, and the systems still require a very good base map to provide the claimed results.  So you can spend your $900 on a misrepresented "auto tune" product and hope the base map meets all your needs, or you can spend your $900 on a TTS/SEPST/etc. and a dyno tune where a good tuner will adjust all the parameters, not just the fuel.

In a perfect world neither solution would be necessary, and neither solution would cost nearly a grand either.  Since the world of Harley is infinitely far from perfect, we get to pick our overpriced poison and HOPE we are one of the lucky ones who either gets a good canned map, or gets a good fully qualified professional tuner.  Sadly there are plenty of Harley riders who have been screwed using either approach, and I'm quite sure that will continue to be the case until engine management systems are mandated to be totally tamperproof and local authorities check compliance during annual inspections.  And I have no doubt that those things will eventually come to pass, probably in California first and then eventually everywhere.

It's amazing how we don't have to go through all this bull crap with four wheeled vehicles.  Even the 500 and 600 horsepower factory hot rods run pretty damned good right off the showroom floor.  Strange how they can do it, but Harley can't.  I wonder if that's because the auto industry can't get away with dealers defeating the emission systems like Harley and it's dealers can.  So there is an incentive for the auto folks to get it right, while there is an incentive for Harley to pass off half-assed stock stuff and then make more money selling you stuff to "fix" your new bike.

Jerry

[IRISHSE]

IrishSE, the bottom line is this:  There are a dozen products out there that will do what you want, and I bet you'll be satisfied with nearly all of them, unless you're chasing numbers on the dyno.  Everybody here is correct in that every one of these devices will change the amount of fuel injected into the cylinders, and it comes down to personal opinion which is "best" for you.

Vance and Hines has the Throttlepak that you can find online for about $150, and the feedback on it is generally very positive.  The Power Vision with auto tune is $800(?) and works very well, and has some great features that make it really appealing.

The Cobra PowrPro was a big improvement over the stock ECM settings, period.  But it wasn't perfect, and can't be adjusted at all, which makes it a poor choice for most folks.  For Cobra to call it an auto tuner is absurd and misleading, and the customer support from Cobra is abysmal.  I won't be buying anything from them again for that reason alone.

TTS and SEPT are the best options if you want to fine tune your bike on a dynamometer (and the PC-V).  But they are also great options for you because there are hundreds of maps out there that can be installed by a vendor like Fullsac, Metal Dragon (hd_dude), Doc's Performance, etc., when you buy the tuner.  They can be updated if you're not happy with the base map, or if you decide to modify your bike in the future.  There are lots of shops that have experience with these, and the prices are reasonable: $350-$450.  A dynotune will run an additional $300-$700, and I've heard stories about people doing horrible jobs tuning with a SERT, TTS, and PC-V, so there's no guarantee that a dynotune will make your bike run better than a good base map.

My personal opinion?  Get the TTS with a base map from one of the vendors here.  You'll be able to get all the help and answers you need here, and it will run better than the Throttlepak or PowrPro (but you might not be able to tell the difference in the real world, anyway).  Plus you have the option of upgrading in the future.

Whatever you do, you'll be fine, and just go out and enjoy your bike.     Let the obsessive/compulsives and experts argue about the minutiae.

Best non bias post in this thread.  Thanks I'm leaning to the TTS