Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Steve Cole]

I'm not sure why you think I've missed it. I've stated that datalogging runs should be short 20mins as advised by DJ. I've also stated that it's best to start with a map closely matched to the bike's engine. In the OP's case there are plenty of maps that would be an exact match if all he's looking for is an exhaust change. Even without autotuning he'd have a far cooler running bike with a map he could load himself and upgrade as needed.

20 minutes at the wrong fuel mixture and timing can and will burn an engine to the ground!!!!!!

There are very good reasons why we have done what we have done. When and if you want to learn, START ANOTHER THREAD, but I would suggest you sit down and read what DJ put in there manual first and then take a dictionary out and understand the words!

Take a dictionary out and look up the word "insight"

a piece of information
the power of acute observation and deduction, penetration, discernment, perception called intellection or noesis
an understanding of cause and effect based on identification of relationships and behaviors within a model, context, or scenario

THAT IS NOT TUNING!!

Then you might look up "is not ideal"

You have listen to the wrong people or read into it what you hoped it would do. You need to get a basic understanding of an engine, the sensors and how they work when controlled by the HD Delphi ECM. This is the about the 30 th time trying to get you to stop and learn. It gets old watching you run around here and other sites saying it over and over again without understanding what you are talking about.

This is just why I know you have some other agenda!

I am Sorry to everyone else in this thread but this needs to stop as someone is going to follow this bad information and burn something up based on these stupid comments and that's just not right.

[Heatwave]

20 minutes at the wrong fuel mixture and timing can and will burn an engine to the ground!!!!!!

There are very good reasons why we have done what we have done. When and if you want to learn, START ANOTHER THREAD, but I would suggest you sit down and read what DJ put in there manual first and then take a dictionary out and understand the words!

Take a dictionary out and look up the word "insight"

a piece of information
the power of acute observation and deduction, penetration, discernment, perception called intellection or noesis
an understanding of cause and effect based on identification of relationships and behaviors within a model, context, or scenario

THAT IS NOT TUNING!!

Then you might look up "is not ideal"

You have listen to the wrong people or read into it what you hoped it would do. You need to get a basic understanding of an engine, the sensors and how they work when controlled by the HD Delphi ECM. This is the about the 30 th time trying to get you to stop and learn. It gets old watching you run around here and other sites saying it over and over again without understanding what you are talking about.

This is just why I know you have some other agenda!

I am Sorry to everyone else in this thread but this needs to stop as someone is going to follow this bad information and burn something up based on these stupid comments and that's just not right.

I've read the manual in detail. Of course an engine will burn up with the wrong fuel mixture and timing.

What's that got to do with anything I've said? Does that mean that SEPST will burn up engines since they use the same approach as the PV to autotune?  I think everyone could benefit from better understanding why you view the PV as any more likely to harm an engine using autotune then if a user were autotuning with TTS or SEPST? I have only posted information that comes directly from sources such as Dynojet so if you have an issue its not with me. I'd like to better understand what "bad" information you believe I have posted that could cause harm because it is information that doesn't come from me but from either instructions for SEPST or DynoJet. It's not like I'm making these instructions up myself.

[Steve Cole]

If your now willing to learn start a new thread and things can be discussed. If a moderator would like to cut all this junk out of this thread and move it to a new thread that would be good.

TTS, SESPT and PV DONOT AUTO TUNE so start by getting that out of your head.

[Heatwave]

If your now willing to learn start a new thread and things can be discussed. If a moderator would like to cut all this junk out of this thread and move it to a new thread that would be good.

TTS, SESPT and PV DONOT AUTO TUNE so start by getting that out of your head.

Dynojet refers to their PV self-tuning process as "Autotuning". That's their term, not mine. http://www.dynojet.com/PowerVision/powervision-software-firmware-downloads.aspx?ProdType=Power%20Vision

You refer to TTS MasterTune self-tuning as "V-tuning".

Harley refers to SEPST Self-tuning as "Smart-tuning".

For the sake of simplicity most people use the generic reference of autotuning to refer to all three processes. Is that a problem? Is there a more accurate term that should be used when discussing these self-tuning software applications?

[hrdtail78]

Dynojet refers to their PV self-tuning process as "Autotuning". That's their term, not mine. http://www.dynojet.com/PowerVision/powervision-software-firmware-downloads.aspx?ProdType=Power%20Vision

You refer to TTS MasterTune self-tuning as "V-tuning".

Harley refers to SEPST Self-tuning as "Smart-tuning".

For the sake of simplicity most people use the generic reference of autotuning to refer to all three processes. Is that a problem? Is there a more accurate term that should be used when discussing these self-tuning software applications?

I understand that it is just words, but V Tuning or Smart tune does not say "autotuning."  TTS is pretty smart about the words they do use.  Autotune does lead to believe one thing.  V-Tune??  New process, new terminology.  I am sure they stayed away from the "autotune" word for a reason.

[grc]

.....................................................
 I have only posted information that comes directly from sources such as Dynojet so if you have an issue its not with me.

Not exactly.  If I repeat stuff that was the original idea of someone else and present it as fact, I don't get to waive all responsibility for misleading people just because the original misleading comment wasn't mine. 

I have no doubt that the PV is a capable product.  The folks at DynoJet have a good history, and they aren't known for selling junk.  But that doesn't mean they aren't just as susceptible to using advertising puffery as any other company trying to compete in a market that has become more and more crowded with other choices.  And if you read their stuff carefully, they in fact mention that the narrow band so-called auto tune function has a very limited application.  Of course anyone who knows anything at all about narrow band oxygen sensors and how they work didn't need to read that admission down in the smaller print of the ad.  And yet when any of us who do know better try to enlighten you, you seem to think we are the azzholes.  Trust me, no one started out trying to demean you or make you out to be a shill or stooge for the PV folks.  Unfortunately your failure to accept facts put forth by people much more qualified to comment on this subject is what started this thread down the slippery slope.  You have made it clear you love your PV.  Fine with me, and I'm sure it's fine with the other guys as well.  Let it go at that and quit trying to convince those of us who know better that the "auto tune" PV is better than sliced bread, Budweiser, and sex all at the same time.  Please.

If you want to help the OP, rather than promote your own agenda, give him a link to the maps for the PV that match what he plans to do to his bike, assuming some exist.  If there is such a thing, then all the talk about so-called auto tuning is moot.  He could buy the PV, load the canned map that matches his bike, and just ride.  This isn't rocket science, and there are many millions of vehicles running down the highways at this very moment that do just fine without customized tunes or "auto" tuning.  How the hell any of us managed to survive all those decades with EFI in cars and trucks amazes me, since we didn't have T-Max or PV to "auto tune" our cars and trucks, and we didn't all have custom maps in our PCM's.  But somehow the cars and trucks ran pretty well, and we didn't burn them up even though they had emission controls, and the earth still turned on it's axis.

Jerry

[SteveFLHTK]

I have read this entire thread with much interest.

I presently have a TTS, purchased, along with a catless header and cores, from Steve at Fullsac.  At the time, I got a canned map from Steve, which I installed at the time.  My bike runs great.....so well, in fact, that I have never bothered with the VTune feature.  Now I have an acquaintance on one of the forums that has a PV and loves it.  He speaks highly enough of it, that I had considered the possibility of purchasing one to replace the TTS (honestly, more for the gauges than anything else).  This thread has certainly changed my mind in that regard.  Based on everything I've read here, if I decide my tune isn't good enough (not likely, but possible), I'll be finding a great tuner like Doc to tune the bike.

One question pointed towards Steve Cole....I thought the newest version of the TTS allowed for doing data collection for a VTune without use of a notebook?

On yet another note....wouldn't it be cool if someone came out with a product that would send the info Heatwave referred to wirelessly to a phone app?

Bottom line to OP...as others have said, either find someone that will sell you a device with a map that matches yours, or find a really good tuner, and buy what he is most comfortable with.  (BTW, hope you didn't gut that cat using a drill, only way to get it all is cutting it in half, no device and no tune will work with only half of it gutted).

[IRISHSE]

I have read this entire thread with much interest.

I presently have a TTS, purchased, along with a catless header and cores, from Steve at Fullsac.  At the time, I got a canned map from Steve, which I installed at the time.  My bike runs great.....so well, in fact, that I have never bothered with the VTune feature.  Now I have an acquaintance on one of the forums that has a PV and loves it.  He speaks highly enough of it, that I had considered the possibility of purchasing one to replace the TTS (honestly, more for the gauges than anything else).  This thread has certainly changed my mind in that regard.  Based on everything I've read here, if I decide my tune isn't good enough (not likely, but possible), I'll be finding a great tuner like Doc to tune the bike.

One question pointed towards Steve Cole....I thought the newest version of the TTS allowed for doing data collection for a VTune without use of a notebook?

On yet another note....wouldn't it be cool if someone came out with a product that would send the info Heatwave referred to wirelessly to a phone app?

Bottom line to OP...as others have said, either find someone that will sell you a device with a map that matches yours, or find a really good tuner, and buy what he is most comfortable with.  (BTW, hope you didn't gut that cat using a drill, only way to get it all is cutting it in half, no device and no tune will work with only half of it gutted).

Great post.

No I had a welder buddy of mine that has done several of these for people already cut it out and tig weld the pipe back up then ceramic coat it inside and out.

[SteveFLHTK]

Ok, much better than those that only get half.  One other issue that I have heard about when doing that, and hopefully one of the much more knowledgeable members will speak of this....I have heard that if you don't add some pipe internally, you have a possibility of crosstalk between the sensors.  As I have one of the Fullsac X-pipes, it's not something I've done a lot of research on myself.

[IRISHSE]

The welder who did my pipe has 35,000 miles on his bike(no tuner) no issues.  He originally did it to reduce heat.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

The welder who did my pipe has 35,000 miles on his bike(no tuner) no issues.  He originally did it to reduce heat.

Keep believing that.  THAT IS THE BIGGEST INTERNET MYTH GOING RIGHT NOW.

If you cut out the cat material, you have effectively shortened the head pipe as originally calculated.  The O2 sensor NEEDS to be at a minimum of 5 diameters of the pipe's diameter AWAY from the end of said pipe.  With the cat cut out?  AT best, you are a couple inches and THAT is way too short for proper sampling of the oxygen as one goes down the road.

Yeah Yeah Yeah... I did it.  My buddy did it.  My dog's owners cousin's ex-wife did it.  Tell you what?  That does NOT make it right, nor correct, nor enables it to sample at the best possible times anymore.   Oh, I tune and have a dyno.  I CHECK O2 actions all the time, and CAN tell you that decatting those pipes is pure bullchit.  In fact, a pipe WITH the cat will make a slight amount MORE power than one cut up.

Way too many folks think since THEY bought it, or THEY altered it, etc... it MUST be good.  And when THEY say how well THEIR bike runs, since that is usually the ONLY bike they EVER ride...  My retort is...  compared to what?  Does it run 'good' compared to a professionally tuned bike with a skilled operator?  NOT some dealer hack, but a REAL tuner?  Of course not...  they all use the butt dyno and baby....  that is NOT the scientific method at all.

This is just like HEATwave and his thinking PV is SSSOOOOOO much better than SEPST or TTS, I call BS on THAT also.

TTS uses a base map for the base calibrations.  SEPST uses a base map for the base calibrations.  PV does NOTHING of the sort at all.  I can take a blank ECM, and using Centurion or a Direct Link and load a TTS or SEPST base cal into the ECM... and the bike WILL run.  PV?  Can NOT do that.  All the PV does is suck out the tune that is already in an ECM, alter the tables you SEE and then shoot it back into the bike.  I dislike PV more than SEPST, and that IS saying something for sure.  How about 'hidden settings'?  There are over 100 hidden settings in a Delphi ECM that we can NOT get to with ANY tuning software.  But...  SEPST and TTS especially CHANGES those hidden settings for a better running bike and incorporates those into the base cals.  One does NOT get this with a PV at all.  EVERY setting is 100% stock.  Here is an example and I will get off of this.   Anyone with a TTS tune will basically tell you that THEIR cruise control will work well over 85mph.  WELL over.  THAT is a 'hidden setting' for those that don't know.  PV, OTOH, your cruise still will NOT work over 85, no matter WHAT you do.

[IRISHSE]

Explain to me how cutting open the pipe and removing the material inside said pipe will shorten the pipe?  It's the same on a car cutting open the cat and then removing the insides and welding it back up.  No different than pre cat pipes.  I'm confused looking for knowledge not argument.  I'm looking for a tuner not trying to rewrite history here, but I don't want to spend money on a head pipe that does nothing but replace my stock head pipe.  I did that in the past with no gains.  I'm not looking for a different sound so no slip ons.  I just want to optimize the bike.  I plan to call and talk with TTS in morning,

[Heatwave]

I'm sorry but I really don't understand the need for misinformation that has been communicated and then when I've corrected it, I'm made the bad guy or some kind of fanboy of PV.

- Folks on this thread stated that PV with "autotuning" costs $800. It doesn't. Basic Autotuning retails for $550 and generally sells for far less.
- Folks claimed having additional maps with you while riding is "hype". I gave what I think are reasonable reasons why they might be helpful to some users.
- Folks are suggesting that the PV doesn't provide base maps to start with. Simply False. They come with an entire library for most engine builds on the market.
- Can the PV set the Cruise limit to greater than 85mph? I don't think so but then anyone setting cruise control for greater than 85mph may have bigger issues to worry about than which tuner they are using. PV Does come with WINPV which for the user that's wants to dive in to the maps they can make multitudes of changes. If you want to know which one's just go to the links I provided earlier.

I really have no vested interest in anything other than maximizing the performance of my bike. I was an early user of Steve's SERT in 2003 before most of the guy's on this forum were probably even efi tuning. (I did say most). When HD bumped SERT and replaced it with SEPST, I was one of the first to sign up and used Smarttuning for years (although obviously I missed when they upgraded their Smarttuning process to cover the entire map by reducing spark advance). They are both great products and provided bike owners with more tuning capabilities than existed before they arrived. I've never used TTS but given that Steve is the developer, its surely a quality product and I suspect it has much in common with SEPST.

Dynojet released the PV and it seemed like an intriguing tool so I gave it a try. I figured I already had SEPST loaded on the bike and worst case I'd go back to it. As it turned out Dynojet was on to something that made "Autotuning" easier from my perspective without the need for a laptop and more detailed tune adjustments by using WINPV on a laptop. How is that a bad thing? As a bonus, I got a touch screen suitable for the bike's handlebar that provided lots of new gauges to monitor the engine's performance. My performance results have been excellent and I tried to share how I generated those results. The service on the PV has been superb from both DJ & Fuelmoto where they have responded to email inquiries within 48hrs and Jamie himself answers every call I've made to provide recommendations and explain how to optimize by "autotuning".

Is the PV the best thing since sliced bread?...absolutely not. Can it be improved?...sure! Can any of these tuning applications provide a great result in the hands of a reasonably knowledgeable bike owner or dyno shop?...absolutely! Will there be future products that bump all of the existing tuning products to the back of the closet as new technologies are developed? ....count on it!

I've tried to fairly share benefits and differences as I experienced them and as they are portrayed by their manufacturers. Do your homework. I've provided a few links to help in that effort if my personal experiences are to be discounted.  Research and explore the differences for yourself and pick the product that best meets your needs. Buyers won't go wrong with any of these tuning products. Good Luck.

[SteveFLHTK]

I "believe" what work truk is referring to is the perceived distance the exhaust travels. With the cat in there, there is a lot of restriction that slows the exhaust down, causing it to "seem" like it travels a longer distance? That's the only way I can figure what he is saying. The exhaust still travels the same distance, but does it much faster. Again, I am not an expert here, but I would think the measurement from the sensors to the end of the pipe would be the end of the mufflers that connect to the headpipe, not the end of the headpipe itself. What I was referring to earlier was the proximity of the 2 sensors, now with no cat material to buffer them, causing a free mix of the exhaust gasses from both cylinders to both sensors. As this is not something I have personally experienced or seen, I really wish Doc or Steve Cole would chime in here.

[SteveFLHTK]

Oh, and as far as replacing the headpipe...I am a firm supporter of Fullsac. I believe either the Xpipe they sell, or the newer sports pipe would either one be better than a stock gutted headpipe and would give you some gains.