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[60FLH]

OP had V&H Big Radius pipe I believe from reading other threads, in your experience will that cooperate well with V-Tune and EGR features? What pipes will/won't?

[mayor]

with all due respect Steve, I disagree that some of those guys are unfamiliar with the workings of the ecm just because they don't use all the tools in that is provided by TTS .  The beauty of the TTS tuning system is it gives you the most access to the tunable tables of the ecm, but that doesn't necessarily mean that adjusting all those tuning tables are necessary to achieve a good running bike.  The TTS software allows for inputing of externally collected data, so I don't see the big deal if some fellows want to tune at a richer value using a different method to collect afr data than vtuning. Sure the narrowbands are faster and more accurate around stoich, but there is nothing wrong with broadband tuning if the tuner has patience and verifies their work just like they would with vtuning.  Currently a broadband has to be used to verify heavy load values anyway, so if it's good enough for the wide open stuff it should be fine for when the air is moving with a little less force. 

Anyone who knows me knows that I am a fan of the TTS system, but my guess is the average person would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a full mt8 tune and an mt7 tune if both tunes were done by capable tuners.  I think the thing that helps with the mt8 capabilities is the margin of error is reduced when the tuning particulars are adjusted correctly because the VE deviations between surrounding cells becomes reduced. 

I stand by my original statement that there isn't a tuner that was mentioned in this thread that doesn't know their way around the Delphi ecm and TTS software.  They may not all use all the tools available in the software, but I don't know a one of them that doesn't use the product (and that's what should be important, not whether they use all the tools in the product).  The OP didn't say anything about using all the bells and whistles of the software in the original post, and if that's an expectation then he should discuss that when he interviews a tuner to see whether they meet his expectations. 

[Buckeye_Tuning]

The simple truth is all these guys mentioned are top notch, so that does make a choice between them tough IMO.  I think they all have a very good understanding of the Delphi ecm, and how to tune with TTS.  The difference is all these guys have slightly different tuning philosophies (and none more right than another IMO), so I would recommend not just limiting yourself to one in particular until you talked to at least a couple so you can get an idea of what exactly you are getting for your tuning money and to make sure you line yourself up to someone who is aligned with your expectations.

Crack must be CHEAP in Pennsylvania.

When do YOU ever see Jim say V-Tuning was OK?  How about Cam Tool?  EGR Tools, etc?  So... how is THAT tuning with a TTS?  When you use a twin Scan to gather all the data and NOT use the NBs to gather all of the closed loop data?

TTS is all about a nice closed loop bike, with cam tool, I have learned some cool tricks to tell whether my 'blips' will be nice and crisp, and other things too.  Some of Steve's tools have turned out to be able to be used for other things entirely, Mike.  Things that NO one wishes to hear at all, and Jim does these?  No reason to be politically correct over here.  Tuning an open loop bike is NOT what I infer from the OP.  I infer he wants a tuner LIKE DOC!  Jim is not Doc, nor tunes like him. So... if a member asks for a guy LIKE Doc , with Docs tuning philosophies, Jim ain't it.

Looks like everyone from the crappy site is here now.  And on THIS site, the TRUTH can be said.

Just like...............................  don't bring ME no PV!  I will screw that tune up and NOT do it the PV way.  This IS a failure of mine.  I have NO problem saying so either.  I do NOT feel that Jim is God.  Some do!  Thats great.  But that is with the tools HE is most comfortable with, Mike.

I tune the way the manufacturer tells me to tune by.  That would be for TTS and Direct Link.  I do NOT tune a SEPST like the mfg says and that CAN make me every bit as suspect as Jim on that.  I feel that it about a person using a tool to its fullest ability.  With ALL the tools.  One reason I went with Direct Link as my secondary choice is I can understand that tool better than some guys can use Twin Scan.  Twin SCan works very well, but not so much for me as opposed to those H8ers can, right Mike?  In my observation of things...  Twin Sacn users do NOT have to know an ECM to the nth degree.  It's open, after all.

Here is MY tuning philosophy ............  if one wishes to have a closed loop tune, whether it is partially closed (bigger builds) or all the way closed like a Stage1...  I feel one MUST use the NB O2s to tune with.  This is because ultimately, it does NOT matter what AFR comes out of the pipe in the closed loop portions, what matters is the ECM is happy with the VEs derived from those same O2s.  Shoving VEs made with off board devices into closed loop, WILL get the CLIs and AFVS in an uproar for sure.

It NEEDS to be also said that open loop tuning CAN work for a lot of folks and a lot of bikes.  But this is NOT 2009 anymore where NONE of us understood what was happening.  I might be a dick, Mike.  I might not be the GREATEST tuner in the world, Mike.  But there are NOT many who understand PID controls and how an ECM works as well as I do.  I feel that I am in the 75th percentile on THAT understanding.  I pay attention.

Greg f$%*nut!  HAHA!  I will call you.  I LOVE it that the 'mods' are over here nowadays, and have NO button to ban me nor punish any of us.  I believe that Steve 75% of the time is cognizant of pushing TTS.  Hell, he MAKES the damn thing, so thats OK in MY book.  The other 25% is spent on TEACHING, which IS great!!  Don't YOU think so Mike?

Mike, change your sign in name so that there is NO carry over from one site to the next.  WIthout you being recognized as the MOD...  maybe you could actually say whatever it is you wish.

In fact!  I am DONE being Wurk the Jerk.  It's time I changed MY handle, so that carry over does NOT follow me around either.

What up Dennis!  Yes... tuning threads are very entertaining.  The most entertaining ones will ALWAYS have bits and pieces of TRUE knowledge.  And... that knowledge can come from anywhere, like Durwood.  What a GREAT guy, that Durwood.  I have seen Durwood tune a bike by ear with a FuelPak, and come within less than 5/5 on a dyno tune performed later.  Dude!  Some on here are set in their ways and attack!!! whenever possible.  That is SO COOL!

This site IS a breath of fresh air.  Truth can again be spoken, or at least MY version of the truth!  HAHA!  ANd... whatever version of truth is spoken all of us members can fight about it all and LEARN.  I love bike riders.  I really love bikers that ride Harleys.  Damn Harley tax is hidden in the form that one MUST buy a tuner to make em run.  Some of the BEST tuners in the world are on this very site.  I HAVE thick skin.  I LIKE members that are trying to DIY a tune.  I usually give good advice (but screw things up once and awhile, but...  I admit my screw ups publicly).

Tuning is a very passionate thing to some of us.  YessireeBob.   I am seeing some members, right here, that I like VERY much and feel that they are such a nice change.

Mike?  I see you posted while I was writing one of my books!  Answer me these two things.

#1) "For a closed loop tune, do you believe that an off board tuning aide is equal to using the Narrow Bands already on a bike, for the BEST closed loop performance"?

#2) " You know the players...  if you wanted a person like DOC to tune your bike, would you REALLY offer up Jim as a person with the same tuning philosophies?"

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I do not, as of yet, know who GRC is, but he seems to be a nice bit of fresh air.

Oh... no more Wurk the Jerk... aka Mister Dick.  Time to step it up for you guys.

[Steve Cole]

with all due respect Steve, I disagree that some of those guys are unfamiliar with the workings of the ecm just because they don't use all the tools in that is provided by TTS .  The beauty of the TTS tuning system is it gives you the most access to the tunable tables of the ecm, but that doesn't necessarily mean that adjusting all those tuning tables are necessary to achieve a good running bike.  The TTS software allows for inputing of externally collected data, so I don't see the big deal if some fellows want to tune at a richer value using a different method to collect afr data than vtuning. Sure the narrowbands are faster and more accurate around stoich, but there is nothing wrong with broadband tuning if the tuner has patience and verifies their work just like they would with vtuning.  Currently a broadband has to be used to verify heavy load values anyway, so if it's good enough for the wide open stuff it should be fine for when the air is moving with a little less force. 

Anyone who knows me knows that I am a fan of the TTS system, but my guess is the average person would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a full mt8 tune and an mt7 tune if both tunes were done by capable tuners.  I think the thing that helps with the mt8 capabilities is the margin of error is reduced when the tuning particulars are adjusted correctly because the VE deviations between surrounding cells becomes reduced. 

I stand by my original statement that there isn't a tuner that was mentioned in this thread that doesn't know their way around the Delphi ecm and TTS software.  They may not all use all the tools available in the software, but I don't know a one of them that doesn't use the product (and that's what should be important, not whether they use all the tools in the product).  The OP didn't say anything about using all the bells and whistles of the software in the original post, and if that's an expectation then he should discuss that when he interviews a tuner to see whether they meet his expectations. 

You are entitle to your opinion, as I, and everyone else is there's. That said if you have learned to use the Cam and EGR tuning properly there would be no one not using it. It effects the low engine speed (idle - 4000), part throttle riding area and if you have ever ridden a bigger build with it done properly there is no comparison between it being done and not being done. Hell, my stock 103 had very noticeable improvements in it when we sorted the adjusting and test procedures out here for it. It is another big piece of the tuning puzzle, not just to smooth the VE tables or for the fun of it but in real world driving its the difference between night and day! At WOT it will make little to no difference but how much time does a person ride at WOT versus idle - 4000 RPM at part throttle? As for understanding the inner working of the Delphi ECM used by HD they would be hard pressed to give any real understanding of it, and most would not even claim to understand it all. I've been at it for over 13 years and I do not even come close to understand it all and thats just on the HD version. With another 28 years working on Delphi base EFI ECM's as well under my belt. As we learn more we give more to the consumer for adjusting as long as it will help. When you stop learning and improving you are just burying your head in the sand and ignoring the facts. This has nothing at all to do with open loop or closed loop tuning either, it more like, let's toss the baby out because the bath water is dirty type thing.


V&H pipes in general do not have very good O2 mounting locations but that has no effect on how the EGR and Cam tuning works, it will effect the low speed operation of Closed Loop. This is just where a good tuner would look and find the area effected and have a couple choices to make. Fix it so it works properly or turn Closed Loop off ONLY in that bad area. To just globally turn it off is a poor choice along the lines of tossing the baby out due to dirty bath water.

[hrdtail78]

my guess is the average person would be hard pressed to tell the difference between a full mt8 tune and an mt7 tune if both tunes were done by capable tuners.  I think the thing that helps with the mt8 capabilities is the margin of error is reduced when the tuning particulars are adjusted correctly because the VE deviations between surrounding cells becomes reduced. 
 

I might agree if you are talking a stage 1, but how about stage 3, 4, and why they do that?  Some great advantages with Cam Tune, and EGR tables.  One is: MT8's let me idle in the upper left corner were the BLM's are set up for me to idle in.

[hrdtail78]

To the OP.  I'd go see Robin.  Ride and enjoy.

[CowboyBagger]

OP had V&H Big Radius pipe I believe from reading other threads, in your experience will that cooperate well with V-Tune and EGR features? What pipes will/won't?

I've got the Drago's SCS 4, 2 into 1 pipe.  T-Man 600 Cam, T-Man port and polish head work, 58 mm throttle body, 5.3 injectors, adjustable push rods, SE 10.5 pistons, Cometic head gasket, lifters and Darkhorse did the complete bottom end.  Spent a lot, need a great tune!

My wife has a Breakout with the V/H Big Radius 2 into 1 with a TTS.  It also needs a tune but not as much as mine.

Cowboy

[mayor]

Answer me these two things.

#1) "For a closed loop tune, do you believe that an off board tuning aide is equal to using the Narrow Bands already on a bike, for the BEST closed loop performance"?

#2) " You know the players...  if you wanted a person like DOC to tune your bike, would you REALLY offer up Jim as a person with the same tuning philosophies?"

ok, I'll answer:
1) no, I think the best practice for closed loop operation is to use the same sensors that you will be using in closed loop to dial in the ve's so that the ecm is not in conflict.

2.  the OP just asked for some one proficient in TTS, and it's hard to deny that Jim knows how to tune with TTS.  It may not be the same methods as some of those other guys, but I think they all likely have their own unique ideas and styles anyway.  There isn't a guy on that list that isn't sharp, so there's no doubt in my mind that they all have learned some unique things over their years of tuning.  Once the OP talks to some of these guys, he can figure out for himself which tuner is aligned with his expectations.  If he wants all the tools used, during the interview process is when to ask that...not after the bike is on the drum or worse yet when the bike's tune is done. 

[Steve Cole]

ok, I'll answer:
1) no, I think the best practice for closed loop operation is to use the same sensors that you will be using in closed loop to dial in the ve's so that the ecm is not in conflict.

2.  the OP just asked for some one proficient in TTS, and it's hard to deny that Jim knows how to tune with TTS.  It may not be the same methods as some of those other guys, but I think they all likely have their own unique ideas and styles anyway.  There isn't a guy on that list that isn't sharp, so there's no doubt in my mind that they all have learned some unique things over their years of tuning.  Once the OP talks to some of these guys, he can figure out for himself which tuner is aligned with his expectations.  If he wants all the tools used, during the interview process is when to ask that...not after the bike is on the drum or worse yet when the bike's tune is done. 

How can you possibly be proficient with something if you do not know how to use it? Since Jim has stated several times he refuses to learn or use EGR tuning, Cam tune and Vtune you would be damn hard press to be proficient at it.....................

[Twolanerider]

Hey Cowboy, while everyone else is sorting things out for you here in your thread just keep in mind that if you head to Gail's give me a heads up.  If time allows I'd buzz up to KC for a bit to say hi. 

[sadunbar]

Hey Cowboy, while everyone else is sorting things out for you here in your thread just keep in mind that if you head to Gail's give me a heads up.  If time allows I'd buzz up to KC for a bit to say hi. 

Or....anyone interested could jump over to HTT and take their pick of any one of about 20 or 30 similar threads and read the same opinions, comments and information.

(Of course, the cliff notes say no one provides new information, changes anyone's mind nor reaches any type consensus in any of those threads...and the same folk that don't care for Jim's TTS tuning skills here don't care for Jim's TTS tuning skill there, either!)   

[mayor]

Mike, change your sign in name so that there is NO carry over from one site to the next.  WIthout you being recognized as the MOD...  maybe you could actually say whatever it is you wish. 

can I use wurk truk now that that one isn't being used.   

you assuming I'm holding back? 

How can you possibly be proficient with something if you do not know how to use it? Since Jim has stated several times he refuses to learn or use EGR tuning, Cam tune and Vtune you would be damn hard press to be proficient at it.....................

when was the last time you actually talked to Jim?  do you know for sure that he hasn't used and learned those features?  it's time for you guys to just let the grudges go, it does no one any good to continually throw stones at each other.  It just makes you look petty. 

OP, you should decide for himself who has the tuning philosophy that matches your expectations by talking to the actual guys that would be doing the work.  If you decide on Robin, I don't think you will regret your choice.  He is a really good tuner, and an exceptionally nice guy.  Since you live in Missouri, I think you should also give Jason over at C&S a call as well since he's right outside of St. Louis.  He's a great guy to deal with and very knowledgeable with TTS.  I wouldn't take anything away from Stroker or GMR either, but it seemed like distance was an issue based on your posts.

[CowboyBagger]

I really appreciate all the information that has been shared in this thread.  It's surprising that there are a limited number of great dyno/tuner technicians out there.  All of the HD dealerships that I've tried are extremely weak in this category, but I have not tried Robin at Gail's.  That will be my first call tomorrow morning.  I believe with my engine build, I will require a great tech that really knows how to get the maximum out of the TTS system.  I've also been told that there is a good dyno guy in Topeka, Kansas.  If I go East, I'll get a hold of Jim or maybe Frank Drago.  I'm not sure if Frank is proficient with the TTS or not but he is a great guy with great customer service so I know he will tell it like it is.  

Since I know there are several dyno tech's on this thread, I would like all of your opinions on a related topic.  As mentioned previously, my wife has a CVO Breakout with V/H Big Radius 2 into 1.  She ordered saddlebags and they will not fit with that pipe.  New pipes will be required to make her happy.  In your opinions, what is the best performing pipe that I can put on this Breakout?   No future engine build on this one, just want it to run good.

Cowboy

[mayor]

I might agree if you are talking a stage 1, but how about stage 3, 4, and why they do that?  Some great advantages with Cam Tune, and EGR tables.  One is: MT8's let me idle in the upper left corner were the BLM's are set up for me to idle in.

you are preaching to the choir.  I happen to like the cam tune tables (although I have only used datamaster for IVO so far) and I also use the EGR tables, but let's be honest not everyone one that is proficient with TTS is using those features due to the additional time that it takes to do the tune.  I'm sure those that aren't are not getting a lot of negative feedback on how the bikes they tuned are performing.  I think having those features help with creating calibrations when there just isn't that "right" one, but there's plenty of good running mt7 bikes out there as well from calibrations that weren't just right for the bike. 

I really appreciate all the information that has been shared in this thread.  It's surprising that there are a limited number of great dyno/tuner technicians out there.  All of the HD dealerships that I've tried are extremely weak in this category, but I have not tried Robin at Gail's.  That will be my first call tomorrow morning.  I believe with my engine build, I will require a great tech that really knows how to get the maximum out of the TTS system.   

I was actually thinking that most guys would give their left nut to have the choices you do with tuners.  I know a guy that traveled 800 miles and across an international border to find a reputable TTS tuner. 

Robin has tuned some really wild builds with great results. If you meet him, you will like him.  His personality is infectious.