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[Steve Cole]

As I said prior to this, the combustion process changes on a running engine, so the only way to get valid data is to do it at the same time. This is just the reason that Mayors results wonder around, even though he made no tuning changes. If he made 5 runs one after the other and controlled the conditions the results would still look the same, different each run. Part of this is due to the fact that the sensor being used is not corrected properly and part from the simple combustion process. What Mayor got was a range of +/-0.035 AFR. That is as good as I ever see them when you really get to look at the data. If he was to do it again in 6 months with no changes it would be different yet again. So at what point do you understand that your chasing your tail and understand that's all there is.

There is no way to say it's tuned to 12.8,13.2, 13.0 or 13.4 as he hit all those numbers during the run. Since there is no way I know of with most of these systems to get the raw unfiltered data out to see what really happened call it what you like and average over the whole run or an average over 1 sec at a time, really does not matter once you understand what's happening.

Once this was done and the data collected if he was to change the mixture and move it up towards 13.5 or down towards 12.8 you might AT BEST see a power change of a couple HP and Torque so does it really matter? I personally would rather have it down in the average area of low 13 to high 12 average as that is a little safe for the engine under WOT conditions.

[mayor]

Reply #52 is good matching data as well.

[FLTRI]

So in a nutshell the test will produce usable results...I think! 

When a tuner says he tunes to 13.5 or 12.8 what he's saying is he is targeting 13.5 or 12.8.

Since know now there is no perfect tune can we assume the better tunes are closer to targets than less quality tunes?

Bob

[mayor]

So in a nutshell the test will produce usable results...I think!

I think it is only viable if there is software to help get everything in line, if not it will be quite difficult for the DIY street tuner to determine how many VE values that they will have to increase/decrease to reach a certain mV value. 

When a tuner says he tunes to 13.5 or 12.8 what he's saying is he is targeting 13.5 or 12.8.

my thoughts exactly. 

Since know now there is no perfect tune can we assume the better tunes are closer to targets than less quality tunes?

as a general statement, I would tend to agree...although, this doesn't automatically assume that the target is right.   

[FLTRI]

I think it is only viable if there is software to help get everything in line, if not it will be quite difficult for the DIY street tuner to determine how many VE values that they will have to increase/decrease to reach a certain mV value. 
 my thoughts exactly. 
 as a general statement, I would tend to agree...although, this doesn't automatically assume that the target is right.   

Consider this. If a guy had some time to make changes to his VE table by say 10% then record the resultant voltage he can then get a feel for how much does what.
As I've said, this is not something for the DIYer to plug and play. This is a way for those willing to put in the time, to get to a good, safe AFR by himself.
Will it ever be as good as a "pro-tuned" bike? Depends on how anal the pro is IMO.
JMO,
Bob

[hrdtail78]

I think it is only viable if there is software to help get everything in line, if not it will be quite difficult for the DIY street tuner to determine how many VE values that they will have to increase/decrease to reach a certain mV value. 
 my thoughts exactly. 
 as a general statement, I would tend to agree...although, this doesn't automatically assume that the target is right.   

If there is a need, I can see the manufature fall into line.  How much VE units to change will fall in line also.  The data I posted is what it is.  I target 13 and error on the rich side.

Like I have stated before.  If we find a manufature that will cut out pakages that don't report O2 voltage.  We will have a tuning device that collects O2 voltage faster.  Puts some analog inputs into the VI.  Tuning world will be on it's ear.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I have been hoping for some AIs on the VCIs for some time now.  This is what Direct Link does.  Dial in the voltage curve and away ya go.

[mayor]

I have been hoping for some AIs on the VCIs for some time now. 

I would like to see this as well.    

[Steve Cole]

Who knows what they mean when they say 13.2 or whatever. If you breakdown the data as I showed you how to do, you see what is really there, with a few pieces of the puzzle still missing. Since we have no way to know what the sample rate is or how the filtering of the data was/is done the best you can see is a trend. Then you (or tuner) can move that trend up or down as there is no way to tell what the real number is to start with.

You can do the same thing with the stock narrow band sensors, just as well as you can with Broad Band sensors or a 4 gas or a 5 gas machine! Just takes the time to gather the data and make the changes in all cases.

Learning and understanding how the tools work is just as important as the results they giveing you, once you learn the limits of the tool all you have left is to use the data to the best of your ability. In this case a Broad Band doesn't show you the trend any better or worse than a narrow band. While the data they show is different the trends they show are the same so you just need to understand that and move on.

[mayor]

Who knows what they mean when they say 13.2 or whatever. .... Since we have no way to know what the sample rate is or how the filtering of the data was/is done the best you can see is a trend. Then you (or tuner) can move that trend up or down as there is no way to tell what the real number is to start with.

the easiest way to fix that is for TTS to develop a broadband controller that hooked into the TTS vci, so that you know the sample rate and can caibrate the sensors.  I think it would be a big hit if you used the same broadband o2 sensors that installs on a DJ dyno.  There, I just figured out what sensor you will be using...now all you have to do is build the controls and intrigrate that into the rest of the software.  Seems easy enough to me...about how long before you have that on the market?   

[Steve Cole]

Why spend the time to build something to use a different sensor if it's not going to be any better than what's already there? ALL sensors have limits to what they can do and the Broad Bands have there's just as the Narrow Bands have there's too. Unless people are willing to use the Broad Bands with Temperature and Pressure tapped in to them it's just not worth it as you gain nothing over the Narrow Bands in reality.

[hrdtail78]

But mayor,  Then we are back to the same slow sampling and averages.  If TTS can figure this out with narrow bands and ECM.  There wont be a need to use broad bands.  The AI's will be nice for us that want to look at EGT's though.

[mayor]

If TTS can figure this out with narrow bands and ECM.  There wont be a need to use broad bands.  

The AI's will be nice for us that want to look at EGT's though.

well, I'll keep an open mind on the narrow bands for wide open...but I'm not sure anything I've seen so far will make me throw away the broad bands.    besides, there still isn't an all inclusive TTS tuning option for bikes that didn't come equipped with sensors.  If I had too, I would even settle for an external narrow bands kit that worked in conjunction with the TTS VCI.     That should be easier yet, since there is no sensor heater control to deal with.   

AI's for EGT would be cool.   

[Steve Cole]

Don't for a minute think that I'm not listening to what your asking for I am just trying to make sure the things we do will benefit the users more than just taking money out of there pocket. The Analog Inputs for the system were thought of before the new interface design and is roughed in but we just haven't had the time to build the necessary software yet to get anything into testing. It will be something offered in the future that's for sure. It will be 4 inputs with a 0 -8 vdc range but will take a little different interface.

[mayor]

you're alright Steve...I don't care what hrdtail and fltri says about you.