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Author Topic: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR  (Read 154014 times)

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FLTRI

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #420 on: July 28, 2013, 12:15:52 PM »

It's a way for the OEM to get negative sensor voltage?
Bob
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whittlebeast

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #421 on: July 28, 2013, 12:43:59 PM »

It's a way for the OEM to get negative sensor voltage?
Bob

Why would they care or want to do that?
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FLTRI

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #422 on: July 28, 2013, 01:17:18 PM »

Why would they care or want to do that?
Provides a better resolution for tighter control.
Bob
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whittlebeast

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #423 on: July 28, 2013, 02:45:03 PM »

What is the accuracy difference between X+1 and X ?   I must have missed something.
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FLTRI

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #424 on: July 28, 2013, 03:01:41 PM »

It's an emissions thing. Nothing to see here, move along. Lol
Bob
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joe_lyons50023

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Re: Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #425 on: July 28, 2013, 03:23:14 PM »

What voltage do the 18mm nb o2  sensors go to close to 13 afr?  Is the same as the 12mm that shoot to what would normally be the voltage for 14.6ish?
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cvofbme

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #426 on: July 28, 2013, 05:25:55 PM »

Quote
Provides a better resolution for tighter control

Phfft .... I guess you know what ADC is used as well, seems to me other than offset 0 to +1 volt is the same as -0.5 to +0.5 volt and most ADC that I'm familar with including Industry Standard 32 Bit Sigmas have no problem with either.  To say it'd make things easier in the software for the code writer I'[d agree with, but to say it provides better resolution regardless for what it's for, is stretching the truth.  Phftt. 
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FLTRI

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #427 on: July 28, 2013, 06:08:14 PM »

Phfft .... I guess you know what ADC is used as well, seems to me other than offset 0 to +1 volt is the same as -0.5 to +0.5 volt and most ADC that I'm familar with including Industry Standard 32 Bit Sigmas have no problem with either.  To say it'd make things easier in the software for the code writer I'[d agree with, but to say it provides better resolution regardless for what it's for, is stretching the truth.  Phftt. 
Phfttt!
Speculation and assumptions.
Phftttt!
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joe_lyons50023

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Re: Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #428 on: July 28, 2013, 07:33:45 PM »

Are you guys making the same noise that kittens make when you startle them? Lol
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Buckeye_Tuning

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #429 on: July 28, 2013, 08:21:47 PM »

Joe, my understanding is this.  Forst of all the sensor has NOTHING to do with the voltages you see, unless they are actually 0-1 volt like a 2008 and 2009 bike.  Then the MOCO put a bias voltage across the whole system so that nowadays we read in the 1700s or what ever.  This has NOTHING to do with the sensor.

It has been MY understanding that this was done to quell noise being generated into the 0-1vdc system.  Think of it this way, if noise generates a spike of 200mv, that becomes 20% effect in fueling... on a 01-vdc system.  On a system with an added 1000mv bias volatge applied to the grounds... that 200mv becomes around a few % points change..  See?  If this was, as Bob says for EPA reasons... maybe so, because this would help keep fueling in line while in closed loop.  It would eliminate wild swings in fuel control while the fuel warbles going down the road.  I would tend to be fairly certain a 10% variance, induced by noise in the sensor wiring, could force the ECM to lose its mind and lose control of fueling.  Same with the car guys, Joe... its about some metal rubbing and making a charge that influences the final readings inside of the ECM.  If this would be a 'tight' electrical circuit with ground drains and all of that, we most likely wouldn't need this offset, but with a simple two wire O2 sensor (the other wires are for the heaters) all of the crap can INDUCE voltages into that two wire circuit.  See?  Another ting to consider is the 'how' the noise can enter the system.  with a 0-1vdc signal, this is an ANALOG signal, and NOT digital.  It will make a sine wave on a scope and not a flat line going across like pure single voltage DC.  Sine wave looks like a heart beat on a monitor, or surely you have seen an AC sine wave?  Anyways, going down the road, when the bikes is in closed loop, that sine wave comes MIGHTY close to zero volts.  If and when it touches zero volts, this becomes like AC voltage and not DC. (AC voltage is NOT necessarily a sine wave, but IS a sine wave that hits zero volts at zero potential)  This AC volatge is half of what we generate and use everyday in our homes and business, but this WILL screw up fuel control's warble dance. Teeny bit of noise inline and the ZERO portion of the graph can get lifted enough to make the low points ground, and hence AC voltages.  With the 1000mv bias in place, the whole sine wave is lifted from zero volts by 100%, so even is the sensor WERE to get to zero volts at the sensor, inside of the ECM it will NEVER get close to touching true zero and this makes it impossible for the voltages to become AC like.

Out at the sensors?  The voltages are still the same as in 2007 with the 18mm sensors.  This voltage is applied inside of the ECM as a noise offset.  AT least, this is what I understand to be happening.

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FLTRI

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #430 on: July 28, 2013, 08:58:23 PM »

Yeah, what John said. :scholar:  :2vrolijk_21:
Bob
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joe_lyons50023

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Re: Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #431 on: July 28, 2013, 10:41:44 PM »

I kinda somewhat get the sine wave idea but not the idea that it is lowering the percentage of influenced error/voltage.  Like Andy said the difference of x or x+1v the measurement comes out to the same just plus 1v so 200mv will still be a 20% change I think.  Here is another question does the bias voltage stay constant or does it change at all for certain situations like when wot requesting 13.2 afr that we are finding the sensor shoots to 1720 instead of 1800-1900mv.  I'm wondering if it is more of a way for the ecm to be able to alter the voltage for whatever reason I guess.  I know that the channel that feeds the bias voltage for the 02 sensors is a 0-5v channel so anything from 0-5v can be used but 1v is picked for some reason and from what I can see 957mv is chosen and not 1000mv but that just may be my calibrations and differs between tuners.
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Buckeye_Tuning

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #432 on: July 28, 2013, 11:06:30 PM »

that added bias voltage stays the same.  Thinking about it all, 07/08 had none.  09 might have had a little, 10 a little more, and I am not certain (cant get on the other forum to look, but 11s up may have the last increase.

Dude, your math needs to  improve.  Think about what you said again... the offset becomes part of the whole equation.  We jumped from a 1000mv system to a 2000mv system.  Wouldn't that cut 'losses' in half?  Percentage wise?



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joe_lyons50023

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Re: Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #433 on: July 28, 2013, 11:42:41 PM »

Yes my math is horrible but if it was a 0-2000mv system then 200mv would be 10% but its not it is a 1000-2000 which is the same scale as 0-1000 so 200mv either way is still a 20% change.
How do you explain why the reading is what it is from the narrow bands at 13 afr when math shows it should be 1800-1900mv?
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hrdtail78

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Re: O2 Sensor Output (mv) compared to measured AFR
« Reply #434 on: July 28, 2013, 11:50:01 PM »

Gotta be careful with Andy's math as well. It showed me rpm and map gets me the same requirement of air for a 88 to 120r engine??
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