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Author Topic: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers  (Read 8519 times)

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Hoist!

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2006, 03:20:59 PM »

Quote

You are, of course, correct, Gary...If you buy the RH slips to fit the stock header pipe size, they will not work later on if you go with the RH true dual headers.  They would however, work with the V&H TD headers.

Of course, if you ever make significantly more power with changes to the engine, the RH's step header system starts coming into it's own.  Others will make good power too though.

Thanks Terry. Do you know which stock size TD's are better, V&H or RH? I'm looking at the next step after I try the S&S slip-ons only first, if the heat's still not acceptable. Hoist!  8-)
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2006, 03:47:36 PM »

Quote

Thanks Terry. Do you know which stock size TD's are better, V&H or RH? I'm looking at the next step after I try the S&S slip-ons only first, if the heat's still not acceptable. Hoist!  8-)


Hoist...I'm not as up on the dyno numbers on one vs the other on the same build/tune as some others might be.  I know some people have some strong opinions about the quality of one versus the other, and that typically always is in favor of the RH's because of the quality of the chrome and the customer service from Karen at Rinehart.

Personally, I've seen a lot of pipes on bikes, and while taking nothing away from any other brand, my personal favorite in the looks department is the RH system.  I like the way they sound as well, but that is a very subjective choice.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2006, 04:04:56 PM »

Addendum:  I don't see where RH makes a set of stock sized TD headers for an 07 bike.

I guess it boils down to this...if you like the looks of the RH mufflers but want to try the stock headers first to see about heat issues, etc, get the RH slips...then later if you wanted to do TD headers, you could always go with the V&H header pipes and everything would work.  From what I'm reading for the 07 bikes, it's the entire system from RH if you want TD's, as anything prior to that only has one O2 sensor bung.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #33 on: December 28, 2006, 09:20:27 AM »

Quote
I think what hoist is asking is if you get the slip-ons now, and later get the Rinehart TD's can you use the slip-ons on them. I'm thinking that since the slip-ons will work on existing pipes, and the mufflers on the TD's are stepped headers (and you can't use other brands of slip-ons because of fitament issues) then you will not be able to use the slip-on mufflers (by Rinehart) on the Rinehart TD's.

With the discussion about fitment, I've just about decided to abandon my original idea of starting off with slip-ons and bite the bullet with the RH TD's.  One question however..., I can't find anything that describes what is meant by "stepped header".  What exactly does that mean?  I assume there is a larger opening where the muffler fits the header but what else?  How is it stepped?  I think better in pictures so if anyone has one, i'd appreciate seeing it.

Thx again.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #34 on: December 28, 2006, 09:30:36 AM »

Different manufacturers use different methods to combat reversion (exhaust gases going backward). Stepped headers is one design where a smaller head pipe is staged within a larger one to make it work better. Thats why its better to get a matched high quality  True Dual system (imo) and you wont also have any annoying deacceleration popping you get with most slipons.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #35 on: December 28, 2006, 11:13:46 AM »

Quote

With the discussion about fitment, I've just about decided to abandon my original idea of starting off with slip-ons and bite the bullet with the RH TD's.  One question however..., I can't find anything that describes [highlight]what is meant by "stepped header".  What exactly does that mean?  I assume there is a larger opening where the muffler fits the header but what else?  How is it stepped?  I think better in pictures so if anyone has one, i'd appreciate seeing it.[/highlight]

Thx again.
rbmntx,

Don't have a decent photo, so I'll post a home made drawing.  

Jerry
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #36 on: December 28, 2006, 11:16:29 AM »

Quote
rbmntx,

Don't have a decent photo, so I'll post a home made drawing.  

Jerry
Jerry,
I tried to find an explanation of why this (stepped header) is a better system, could you possible explain it? TIA.

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #37 on: December 28, 2006, 12:11:26 PM »

Thanks Jerry, I appreciate the drawing.  

Firedood, I know enough about fluid dynamics to be dangerous.  I know that as pipe diameter increases, internal flow pressure decreases.  To my way of thinking that reduces back pressure.  I don't know how that translates to better performance though.
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #38 on: December 28, 2006, 12:45:41 PM »

 
Uh oh! [smiley=nervous.gif]  This has all the markings of another "covalent bonding" discussion. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2006, 12:55:43 PM »

Quote

Uh oh! [smiley=nervous.gif]  This has all the markings of another "covalent bonding" discussion. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

Oh I hope not. I got lost last time that happened. ;) [smiley=dizzy2.gif] [smiley=duhk.gif]

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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2006, 01:14:44 PM »

'd00d,

I don't claim to be an expert on exhaust system dynamics; with that in mind I'll try to provide a basic answer to your question anyway. [smiley=confused5.gif]  Like many things, head pipe diameter is a compromise.  A small diameter will help maintain exhaust velocity at low engine speeds, thus helping to scavenge the exhaust gases and reduce reversion (exhaust backflowing into the combustion chamber and diluting the fresh mixture).  A larger diameter pipe will allow for better scavenging and flow at high speeds.  The "stepped" design attempts to give you the best of both worlds, with an initial small diameter for low speeds, opening up to the larger diameter to allow for increased flow at higher speeds as the gases expand.

A similar idea was the "torque cones" that you could buy to install in your head pipes at the cylinder head.  They were reasonably effective on the EVO's to reduce reversion and improve low and mid range performance with low restriction pipes, especially drag pipes.

Jerry
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2006, 04:13:44 PM »

A little more to the discussion.  When the exhaust valve opens there is a supersonic or near-supersonic pulse that shoots down the pipe ahead of the exhaust flow, mostly along the wall.  When it reaches something, like a baffle or even the end of the pipe, part of it is reflected back up the pipe where it creates "back pressure".  But it's not really back pressure, just what most people think of when they hear the term.  Back pressure isn't the enemy, it's this reflected pulse or reversion.  The best example is on a 2-stroke engine where the pipe length and shape is tuned to have the reflected pulse arrive just before the exhaust port closes.  Two cycles being what they are, a little air-fuel mixture goes out the port before it closes (why they run dirty), and the pulse pushes it back in.  It's a very low pressure forced induction.  The problem with 4-cycles is there isn't any air-fuel mixture coming out the exhaust in most cases (you people with massively overlapping cams aside), just stuff you want to get rid of, so the pulse just pushes exhaust back into the cylinder.  Slash-cut pipes aren't just for show.  The hope (and it actually works) is that without a sudden end to the pipe that a straight cut one has there is less of a reflection.  Welding lolli-pops in the outlet does the same thing, you vary the reflection until you find the place where things cancel each other out the best.  Torque cones, along with increasing port velocity, keep the exiting pulse off the side wall and keep the reflected pulse, which is along the wall, away from the port.

The step in the header is doing the same thing, it breaks up the pulse clinging to the wall on the way out, and gives a surface on which a return pulse can reflect back off of.  No covalent bonds or Brownian motion involved!
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #42 on: December 28, 2006, 04:27:17 PM »

I am so glad i dont worry apout the swirl marks covalantly clinging inside my pipes due to pink floyd's blaring from the HK..   Thanks for the laymans explanation  gecko   good post [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #43 on: January 05, 2007, 01:25:27 PM »

 [smiley=pepper.gif]Well I did it!  Enough with the over analyzing every possible aspect and scenario.  I finally threw up my hands and decided to order the Rinehart slip-ons.  If, in the summer time I decide I need to run TD's to keep from burning my butt off, then I'll add the V&H TDs.

The slip-ons should be here Wednesday and if I'm finally over the flu by then will have them on my SERK by Wednesday evening.  I'll take a picture and even see if I can record a sound bite and attach it.

Okay, now that it's a done deal, it's time for everyone to start coming out of the woodwork telling me "what I should have done instead".

By the way, I bought them at Cycle Spot at 20% off, no tax, & free shipping if anyone is interested. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
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Re: True Duals vs Slip On Mufflers
« Reply #44 on: January 05, 2007, 02:04:19 PM »

What was the total co$t??
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