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[DOWNTOWN DON]

I'm always reading the threads on "canned" maps vs dyno. I ran my 2012 cvosg with the fullsac set up inc. tts,  and their map. The bike ran so good that i never bothered having it dyno'd. Whats got me curious is. How many people dyno'd their bikes after running canned maps for a while, (any brand of tuner and map) And how much of an increase did they gain in hp & tq? Was it worth the dyno tune, or just piece of mind? Obviously a stage two would make a bigger difference than a stage one, but curious to see the numbers.

[Twolanerider]

Alternatively, but also unfortunately, there are too many cases of bikes running worse after dyno tuning because too many tuners aren't good at what they're doing.  Really need to vet the operator.

[SBB]

Alternatively, but also unfortunately, there are too many cases of bikes running worse after dyno tuning because too many tuners aren't good at what they're doing.  Really need to vet the operator.

X 2
I only know of three tuners I would trust to fine tune my bikes. Unfortunately none are close enough to justify the trip to gain a few HP or foot pounds of Torque. Mine run great, other than these three tuners the downside is you may leave with your bike running worse than it did before it was tuned.

SBB

[FLSTFI Dave]

Twice I have road a bike down to Doc in FL with a canned map.  Twice I have come home with a MUCH better running bike.  It also happened to have a much smoother torque curve.  Power was only a little more.  However the bike ran MUCH better, was MUCH smoother and felt better.  Its over 600 miles one way for me to get down to for a tune.  So, for me the money was well worth it.

[Ridgerunr]

I would agree with Dave, Doc, and several other tuners are worth the trip. Back in 2005 I trailered my bike from Mich. to Minn. to have Doug Lofgren tune a high compression 95" build. It's a shame some dealers won't train techs thoroughly and then let them spend the time required to dial in the all the throttle positions instead of a download and a couple wide open pulls. For a stage 1 a canned map is OK, but when the opportunity presents itself for a proper tune, I'd go for it.

[kiro]

I purchased a SEPRT after exhaust changes and had my local dealer do a tune. Thought they were going to do this on their dyno but ended up installing a canned map instead as far as I could tell. The read-out they provided was just over 82 HP and 106 torque. I'm not fixated on the numbers, just trying to get the bike to run as good as it could, but the performance of the bike afterwards was less than impressive, actually quite poor... And they knew it - the tech said if there were any problems to 'bring it back in'. After doing some research I took it to a tuner who knows his business. Although the read-out didn't change much, ended up with 86 HP and 101 on torque, the performance difference was significant. Made me recognize how much smoother and better the bike can run when properly tuned. No more canned maps for my scoot, but the tune is only as good as the guy doing it so do some research...

[grc]

I agree with Twolane and SBB, if you have a map that works well for the way you ride, you may be much better off leaving things alone unless you have access to a fully qualified expert tuner and just can't resist.  But as Dave mentioned, if you do have access to an acknowledged expert and don't mind spending the money, even the best canned map can always be tweaked for smoother operation. 

Btw, unless you plan to race, chasing that last horsepower or two shouldn't be your goal.  It's a street bike, and you should be looking for a broad, smooth torque curve in the range you use 99% of the time.  Most of us do not run WOT from stop light to stop light all the time.  (And those who do need to grow up.)

Jerry

[HOGMIKE]

I'm always reading the threads on "canned" maps vs dyno. I ran my 2012 cvosg with the fullsac set up inc. tts,  and their map. The bike ran so good that i never bothered having it dyno'd. Whats got me curious is. How many people dyno'd their bikes after running canned maps for a while, (any brand of tuner and map) And how much of an increase did they gain in hp & tq? Was it worth the dyno tune, or just piece of mind? Obviously a stage two would make a bigger difference than a stage one, but curious to see the numbers.

I also have the "canned map" from Fullsac and like you never bothered to get in on the dyno after as the bike ran great. I was curious with my '09 to see if I could gain a few HP after using the canned map, yeah gained about 1 or 2hp, big deal!
My '10 and my '14 are using the canned maps provided by Fullsac and meets my requirements and riding style. Steve specifically asked the questions as to what I was looking for (I pull a trailer, 2-up sometimes) and he adjusted my map to fit my riding style.
My new bike runs so well I'm leaving the stock cams and engine as is.
JMHO, of course!
 

[Para Bellum]

Three experiences with canned vs. Tuner.

1.  2 friends had dealer put on VH Power Duals, 4" Rineharts, and SERT. Dealer tech doesn't know how to tune; just installs parts and canned map, then runs a pull on dyno.  Bikes were always missing/dying in slow-speed maneuvers.  Both of them took it to an actual dyno tuner (Mike Stegman at Latus HD), who fixed problem and made bikes run much better across the board.

2.  I got a canned map and PC-V from Fuel Moto for stock bike.  Ran OK.  Installed .010 over 10.5:1 SE pistons, Woods 777 cam, and new map from FM.  Ran like crap.  Took to same tuner in #1 above;  ran great with 100 HP and 114 TQ.

3.  Installed Fullsac DX, 2.0 baffles, and TTS with FS map.  Ran OK but barely better than stock. No dyno beforehand, but after was 84 HP and 99 TQ SAE (like stock). Took to same tuner again; 94 HP and 109 TQ.

So that's my mostly first-hand experience with canned vs. dyno maps from a good tuner No contest.

On a different note, I read all these threads on here about Fullsac's great canned maps and great customer service.  For me, his canned map was a dud, and he was on the edge of downright rude when I asked if maybe I had received the wrong map.  Very disappointing after hearing so many on here rave about his customer service, hardware, and maps.  I got more help with my map from every other "tuning" vendor here than from the guy who sold me and a friend 2 headers, 6 sets of baffles, and 2 TTS (I recommended FS to the friend before I bought mine).  So I don't recommend FS to anyone anymore.

Sorry for the thread jack and the rant.

[SBB]

So I don't recommend FS to anyone anymore.

As with most things there is always two sides to a story.
I'm sure his business will be fine without your recommendation.
It's ok though, he still has mine and hundreds of others from this site!

 

SBB

[Ed Ramberger - One_Screamin_Eagle]

I'm always reading the threads on "canned" maps vs dyno. I ran my 2012 cvosg with the fullsac set up inc. tts,  and their map. The bike ran so good that i never bothered having it dyno'd. Whats got me curious is. How many people dyno'd their bikes after running canned maps for a while, (any brand of tuner and map) And how much of an increase did they gain in hp & tq? Was it worth the dyno tune, or just piece of mind? Obviously a stage two would make a bigger difference than a stage one, but curious to see the numbers.

It really depends on the extent of the modifications.  The adaptive fuel can move +/- 10% from center, and many people who put on slip ons and an air cleaner simply need to ride the bike around and the bike will be fine.  The caveat being that it will run pretty lean in the factory closed loop setting and the rev limit will be set to stock.  On top of adaptive fuel there is a running fuel change but you do not want to rely on that.  When the VE tables are set up properly, the adaptive fuel is pretty much centered which allows the system to continuously compensate up and down based on fuel and other parameters. 

Many people do not understand that the adaptive fuel also affects open loop areas, and I have seen more than one "tuner" adjust 100% runs only then wonder why the tune seems to go south as the customer rides it.

Using a tuner that allows  you to slew the closed loop a tiny bit richer never hurts and you can raise the rev limit if the bike is still pulling that high.  Whenever I tune a bike, I monitor the peak power and set the rev limit and shift light accordingly.

Some tuners will take the bike out of closed loop and the customer will say how awesome and how cool (temp wise) it runs.  This is great IF they properly set up the VE tables.  When they don't, it's a nightmare for the customer. 

Additionally, stock maps are set to run in Arizona and Alaska.  The timing can usually be adjusted a few degrees to free up a little more power. 

Just some food for thought.

[FLSTFI Dave]

I agree with Twolane and SBB, if you have a map that works well for the way you ride, you may be much better off leaving things alone unless you have access to a fully qualified expert tuner and just can't resist.  But as Dave mentioned, if you do have access to an acknowledged expert and don't mind spending the money, even the best canned map can always be tweaked for smoother operation. 

Btw, unless you plan to race, chasing that last horsepower or two shouldn't be your goal.  It's a street bike, and you should be looking for a broad, smooth torque curve in the range you use 99% of the time.  Most of us do not run WOT from stop light to stop light all the time.  (And those who do need to grow up.)

Jerry

That sums up why I have mine Tuned.

My CVO King with Ported heads, 10.5 Pistons, compression set to 10.8, 5.3 injectors, 259E cam, 55mm HPI throttle body, fullsac exhaust, after the build and Tune by DOC is the smoothest riding harley.  Not a flat or dead spot in the throttle any where, far easier and smoother to ride than any stock harley. 

So while the canned map for my 15 CVO from fullsac was pretty good, just a bit of deceleration pop which is easily fixed I knew it would ride smoother and better throttle response with a good tune. 

Doubt it makes much if any more power.  Have run the exact same bike, with the same exhaust and the canned map.  Pretty much even all the way to 100 mph.  So there is nothing wrong with the canned map, its just not as smooth a a bike specific tune by a true PRO.

[hrdtail78]

I will speak of the difference between a canned map and a good tune done by a good tuner.  I will stay away from what is a good tune and tuner.

The thing people need to take into consideration is the peak, WOT power pulls that you get after a tune is a very small snap shot of what a tuner did in the WOT area.  Most riders spend very little time at WOT so basically.  The sheet they give you is like a dream sheet.  If you can get the bike in the optimal engine temp, inlet air temp, and rest of bike heated up, and went WOT.  You might feel the numbers that are shown on the sheet.

What does matter and what riders do feel the most is what is going on in the 0-40% or 30-80kpa in the range from idle to 4500rpm.  This is also the area we want the stock O2's to correct or to allow the STFT and LTFT to work their magic.  The O2's are going to produce a voltage and report that to the ECM.  Garbage in garbage out.  The stock O2 sensors are modeled and made to work correctly in a choked down restrictive exhaust system.  The point of a stage 1 exhaust besides making it sound better.  Is to free up the exhaust.  Aloow it to flow better and hopefully this will equate to more power.  Basically, exactly what the stock exhaust isn't and what the O2's are not modeled or made for. 

I usually see these bikes running extremely rich on the lower end around light throttle and low rpm's.  This is because the O2's are reading lean because of reversion.  Part of the job as a tuner is to test, and make decisions on what will work in closed loop and what wont.  When to trust O2's and when the data they are giving is wrong.

A custom calibration will always perform better than a canned map.  How much better?  What improvements or how much more power will all depend on what it is now.  Hard for me to tell by just looking most of the time, but once in a while I can look at the exhaust and just know from my experience what is not going to work without a tune.

FWIW

Jason

[HOGMIKE]

As with most things there is always two sides to a story.
I'm sure his business will be fine without your recommendation.
It's ok though, he still has mine and hundreds of others from this site!

 

SBB

Agreed
To expand a little on MY experience with "canned maps"...My last few bikes just happened to have the same upgrades that Steve had on his personal "mule", and, YES he does take trips on it!
My bike had the same exact map he made for his bike (same mufflers, head gasket, a/c, etc etc), same part of the country, etc etc.......so, for ME the "canned map" worked just fine.
We played with my '10 a bit on his dyno just to see if making changes to the map I was using would make any difference, we got about 1-2HP by leaving the a/c element off. not enough to worry me.
Like most of us who deal with the public, you can't please all the people all the time and we realize that. We do the best we can and if it doesn't work there is always an alternative.
Now............if you REALLY want to be frustrated try dealing with a custom painter~!
JMHO, of course!
 

[Fullsac Performance]

3.  Installed Fullsac DX, 2.0 baffles, and TTS with FS map.  Ran OK but barely better than stock. No dyno beforehand, but after was 84 HP and 99 TQ SAE (like stock). Took to same tuner again; 94 HP and 109 TQ.

Ever bring your own Ribeye to a fancy restaurant and ask them to cook it? Guaranteed, they will burn the crap out of it and tell you it was no good. When you take your bike to a shop with a dyno after you spent your hard earned dollars with someone else getting their parts and tuner, the same thing is going to happen. They are going to burn your baseline and tell you the tune is no good. Just like when the wife gets the free Brake inspection at Midas, the whole car is junk.  Double Copper, I honestly don't know who you are. But I'm sure if you told me your bike was making 84 hp after your local dyno guy ran it, well things most likely went down hill fast after that. I have a low tolerance for dyno games and associated BS. My parts make the same numbers over and over. 84 HP is laughable , that's less than stock. Lol.. My apologies if my attitude was less than professional and you didn't receive satisfactory tech assistance. 94 HP is still weak. Any time you want to make the trek to Lake Havasu you have a free dyno session on me. Sit back, have a cold beverage, flirt with Cammy while I see if I can get 98HP out of it like all the other Stage I CVOs that leave my shop. Your brakes and your steak will be fine too.

Steve@fullsac.com