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[Chief]

Now, now Chief, don't forget about your 2 Year Warranty! This is your Warranty conscience speaking! Hoist!  8-)

Don't fret my friend. I've got the PC neatly tucked inside the cover where it will stay... for two years, maybe more.

Chief

[copout221]

 [smiley=smilie_daumenneg.gif] Spoke with Karen from Rinehart reference the O2 sensor problem who was somewhat receptive to my situation. She basically explained that the pipes are designed to accomodate the stock size sensors and they could not be responsible for the fact I am using another type of sensor. I told her I am not holding them responsible but wanted to make them aware of the problem and see if there was anything they could do for me. She basically said that unless they receive a large number of complaints from customers about the bung location they would most likely not look into it. She advised that the bungs are welded in by hand and changing the location would require major re-tooling  [smiley=huh2.gif]. I could not understand that excuse but did not want to argue with her. She told me she would speak with the CEO about the issue and get back to me. Later in the day Karen called me back and told me what I expected. They would not be able to do anything for me unless they received more complaints which would force them to move the bung or re-design the right side pipe for more clearance. She said my name was on her priority list  [smiley=speechless.gif] and I would be notified if and when there was a new right side pipe designed or the bung was moved. I highly doubt I will ever hear from Rinehart again and they have just lost a loyal customer. Oh well, I'm sure the competition will take my money !!! [smiley=wall.gif]

[Twolanerider]

They would not

So, how you going to fix it?

[copout221]

i read this thread too late.  i was aware of the brake pedal issue on some bikes. my rinehart pipes came in monday after ordering them in october.  i also decided to go the thunder-max with auto tune route so i called thundermax technical support to talk with a live person told them of my setup and placed the order. only problem i was made aware of was the acr which they provided instructions on how to disable. i'm crossing my fingers and hope it goes my way with the thundermax install. i guess if the tech said something about this i would have gone the sert. the thundermax should be here friday. wish me luck!

 could someone explain the acr to me. and problems that could occur by disabling it if any.
nothing is plug-n-play anymore!

my 96 flhr is road worthy....

ride safe

Does your bike have an oil cooler? If so you may have a fitment issue where there is not enough clearance between the oil cooler adapter and the new sensor. If I had to do it all over again I would choose another pipe manufacturer rather than not use the Thundermax. I like the idea of the Thundermax so much that I lost $400.00 because I was running a SERT with a semi-custom map and stock ECM. If I have to sell these Rineharts on E-Bay I am willing to take a loss  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] and go with a 2 into 1 D&D Fat Cat system with a ghost pipe on the left side. The D&D's produce more torque and HP compared to the Rineharts. If you have a fitment issue with right side pipe I would pack the entire kit up and exchange it for something that works.

The ACR bypass is fairly easy and straightforward. You have to pull a purple wire from the stock ECM wire harness and replace it with a small plastic insert. It took me 10 minutes to complete and I have not had any problems with the bike starting up. It actually starts smoother than before. Good luck with the Rineharts and don't expect any support (From Rinehart) if they don't fit with the Zippers O2 sensor.

[copout221]

So, how you going to fix it?

 I took the right side pipe off yesterday and heated up the area around the O2 sensor. After getting it good and hot I used a ball pein hammer and a piece of hard steel stock to kink the pipe a bit just above the sensor bung. After smoothing out the area I struck I re-fitted the pipe on the bike and have adequate clearance now that I feel comfortable with. The wires and shielding are still touching the top of the OC adaptor but are not being compressed or pinched. I can actually move the wires around now and see a small gap if I l lift them up a bit. Zippers said that it will be fine this way so I am going to leave it alone. I already put a small nick in my chrome engine guard after striking it with an open ended wrench which pissed me off. I am also tired of removing the footboard, re-installing the footboard, etc. If this does not work I will contact Zippers and purchase a new exhaust system from them and ask them to replace the O2 sensor at no charge which I am sure they will do (especially if I spend another $800.00 bills with them). I am still upset with Rinehart and no one on this forum will change my mind. They didn't even want to see the pictures I took which told me they don't care so they better not expect me to support them or their products in the future. They could have at least asked me to ship the pipe back to them and they could have altered the bung position for me but NO, I am on my own again after spending top dollar on a product that I just helped them design better. Maybe they should hire me to do their R&D and QC or maybe they should start reading Harley related forums like Zippers does.  
[smiley=soapbox.gif]

[Chief]

 I took the right side pipe off yesterday and heated up the area around the O2 sensor. After getting it good and hot I used a ball pein hammer and a piece of hard steel stock to kink the pipe a bit just above the sensor bung. After smoothing out the area I struck I re-fitted the pipe on the bike and have adequate clearance now that I feel comfortable with. The wires and shielding are still touching the top of the OC adaptor but are not being compressed or pinched. I can actually move the wires around now and see a small gap if I l lift them up a bit. Zippers said that it will be fine this way so I am going to leave it alone. I already put a small nick in my chrome engine guard after striking it with an open ended wrench which pissed me off. I am also tired of removing the footboard, re-installing the footboard, etc. If this does not work I will contact Zippers and purchase a new exhaust system from them and ask them to replace the O2 sensor at no charge which I am sure they will do (especially if I spend another $800.00 bills with them). I am still upset with Rinehart and no one on this forum will change my mind. They didn't even want to see the pictures I took which told me they don't care so they better not expect me to support them or their products in the future. They could have at least asked me to ship the pipe back to them and they could have altered the bung position for me but NO, I am on my own again after spending top dollar on a product that I just helped them design better. Maybe they should hire me to do their R&D and QC or maybe they should start reading Harley related forums like Zippers does.  
[smiley=soapbox.gif]

CO,

Congrats for taking maters into your own hands and coming up with a solution that will work.

I had a ral nice conversati on with Karen at Bub this morning, and we talked about your problem, and Scott's. Currently, there are no plans to change anything, but the door is not totally closed.

The real problem, is that they have only heard from a few of us. They don't see this as a big problem, and from a business point of view, I can't blame them.

Is this an easy problem to fix? Yes. Will they revisit it and fix it? Well, that partly depends on us. Can we open their eyes to the scope of this problem? I sure as hell am going to try.

I have been impressed with Bub, because they were at least willing to listen. Try to get that from Vance & Hines. I have to at least give them the benefit of doubt at this point.

I told Karen that I would send her (karen@bubent.com) an email with pictures of your conflict, Scott's milled adapter, along with my proposed change. She said she would put this in front of the CEO, Ken. I can't ask for any more than that.

Karen told me this is a problem they have just been hearing about. As far as I know, Scott's email of 12/18 was the first time they have been notified about it. I think getting something in front of the CEO in only 3 weeks is actually good progress.

I'll take point on this, and see if I can get them to see the light. I know they'll lose at least one sale if they don't change it, mine. That in itself will probably pay for the change.

I'll keep the group posted on any accomplishments along the way.

This is only round 1 on these pipes. I am hopeful a satisfactory solution can be agreed upon.

Chief

[Hoist!]

CO,

Congrats for taking maters into your own hands and coming up with a solution that will work.

I had a ral nice conversati on with Karen at Bub this morning, and we talked about your problem, and Scott's. Currently, there are no plans to change anything, but the door is not totally closed.

The real problem, is that they have only heard from a few of us. They don't see this as a big problem, and from a business point of view, I can't blame them.

Is this an easy problem to fix? Yes. Will they revisit it and fix it? Well, that partly depends on us. Can we open their eyes to the scope of this problem? I sure as hell am going to try.

I have been impressed with Bub, because they were at least willing to listen. Try to get that from Vance & Hines. I have to at least give them the benefit of doubt at this point.

I told Karen that I would send her (karen@bubent.com) an email with pictures of your conflict, Scott's milled adapter, along with my proposed change. She said she would put this in front of the CEO, Ken. I can't ask for any more than that.

Karen told me this is a problem they have just been hearing about. As far as I know, Scott's email of 12/18 was the first time they have been notified about it. I think getting something in front of the CEO in only 3 weeks is actually good progress.

I'll take point on this, and see if I can get them to see the light. I know they'll lose at least one sale if they don't change it, mine. That in itself will probably pay for the change.

I'll keep the group posted on any accomplishments along the way.

This is only round 1 on these pipes. I am hopeful a satisfactory solution can be agreed upon.

Chief

Man, you guys really love them RH's, huh? Who needs that for a set of pipes? I hope my slip-on idea works. It will make things easier for the Bosch sensors. Chief, how do you like the V&Hs w/ the stock headpipes. I guess you won't know for sure until you get the PC set up? I'm keeping an eye on this one. I hope your tuning goes well tonight and you have only good news!

It'll be nice to meet you (and Pinky?) in Hot Springs! Hoist!  8-)

[sadunbar]

 I took the right side pipe off yesterday and heated up the area around the O2 sensor. After getting it good and hot I used a ball pein hammer and a piece of hard steel stock to kink the pipe a bit just above the sensor bung. After smoothing out the area I struck I re-fitted the pipe on the bike and have adequate clearance now that I feel comfortable with. The wires and shielding are still touching the top of the OC adaptor but are not being compressed or pinched. I can actually move the wires around now and see a small gap if I l lift them up a bit. Zippers said that it will be fine this way so I am going to leave it alone. I already put a small nick in my chrome engine guard after striking it with an open ended wrench which pissed me off. I am also tired of removing the footboard, re-installing the footboard, etc. If this does not work I will contact Zippers and purchase a new exhaust system from them and ask them to replace the O2 sensor at no charge which I am sure they will do (especially if I spend another $800.00 bills with them). I am still upset with Rinehart and no one on this forum will change my mind. They didn't even want to see the pictures I took which told me they don't care so they better not expect me to support them or their products in the future. They could have at least asked me to ship the pipe back to them and they could have altered the bung position for me but NO, I am on my own again after spending top dollar on a product that I just helped them design better. Maybe they should hire me to do their R&D and QC or maybe they should start reading Harley related forums like Zippers does.  
[smiley=soapbox.gif]

I am very sympathetic to your frustrations and very happy to hear you have found a solution to make everything work.  Congratulations for your determination thru all of this and producing a functioning system.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  I am sure it was frustrating for you, as it was for me, to learn that due to bad luck, some were able to purchase the exact same parts as we did and just bolt them together, while we had to trouble shoot and make modifications to install our parts.  We were on the wrong side of the fine line of the combination of parts fitting or not fitting - due to  variations in the manufacturing of the parts.  I strongly suspect the manufacturing variations reside with Rinehart.  Of course, an even better end to your journey would be for Rinehart to agree to relocate/reposition their bungs, as this is the easiest, most obvious answer to the entire issue - and eliminate the fine line of the combination parts fitting or not fitting.

One other issue that came out of this whole issue was learning that the cooler adapter and fittings on your bike and the cooler adapter and fittings on my bike are different.  I wonder which of us have latest parts and pieces???  and why??[smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Scott

[Chief]

Man, you guys really love them RH's, huh? Who needs that for a set of pipes? I hope my slip-on idea works. It will make things easier for the Bosch sensors. Chief, how do you like the V&Hs w/ the stock headpipes. I guess you won't know for sure until you get the PC set up? I'm keeping an eye on this one. I hope your tuning goes well tonight and you have only good news!

It'll be nice to meet you (and Pinky?) in Hot Springs! Hoist!  8-)

Hoist,

Part of this is for me, the other part is for people like copout221 and sadunbar. If I can do something that will help out, I'll go for it.

I'm not going to kill myself over this, but I'll give it the good college try. Hopefully we'll all be happy with the end result.

Looking forward to meeting you too.

Chief

[RedDevil]

I am very sympathetic to your frustrations and very happy to hear you have found a solution to make everything work.  Congratulations for your determination thru all of this and producing a functioning system.   [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  I am sure it was frustrating for you, as it was for me, to learn that due to bad luck, some were able to purchase the exact same parts as we did and just bolt them together, while we had to trouble shoot and make modifications to install our parts.  We were on the wrong side of the fine line of the combination of parts fitting or not fitting - due to  variations in the manufacturing of the parts.  I strongly suspect the manufacturing variations reside with Rinehart.  Of course, an even better end to your journey would be for Rinehart to agree to relocate/reposition their bungs, as this is the easiest, most obvious answer to the entire issue - and eliminate the fine line of the combination parts fitting or not fitting.

One other issue that came out of this whole issue was learning that the cooler adapter and fittings on your bike and the cooler adapter and fittings on my bike are different.  I wonder which of us have latest parts and pieces???  [highlight]and why[/highlight]??[smiley=nixweiss.gif]

Scott

 

Scott,
Not to be a smarta$$, but here's right from the CVO specs on the HD website as to why:
"Harley-Davidson reserves the right to discontinue models or change specifications at any time without incurring any obligations. Vehicle specificatlons may vary by country and region depending on local laws. Some models are not available in certain countries."  
Gives them a legal out with no recourse or obligation from/to us the consumer.
Cheers,  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[Midnight Rider]

Hoist,

Part of this is for me, the other part is for people like copout221 and sadunbar. If I can do something that will help out, I'll go for it.

I'm not going to kill myself over this, but I'll give it the good college try. Hopefully we'll all be happy with the end result.

Looking forward to meeting you too.

Chief

Chief....agree with you on all points.  Karen is great, from all reports I've ever heard, and will do everything she can to accomodate the customer.  I have first hand experience with her customer service on a very minor issue, and she was extremely helpful.  I think if you and others approach this in a logical/rational way, presenting the facts which are causing problems on the CVO's, and also showing them that any other HD bike with the same oil cooler might have the same issues, they will at least consider the changes.  Making the point that everyone is anticipating more and more of the full time closed loop systems to come out in the near future, and we would all like to plan ahead as much as possible, and those future systems might also use an industry standard O2 sensor like Bosch, might help them understand and wrap their heads around the issue and the effect it could have on future sales.  It would be much more cost effective to make the small change necessary, even if it just means slightly changing the location of the bung and not using a different type, at this point in time rather than getting more and more systems out there on the market and have the issue come up more often later down the road.

I have no first hand experience, but have been told by people I trust that V&H's has very poor customer service after the sale.  That is one reason I chose RH's for my bike.

At least with RH, there is a good point of contact in Karen.  Several people on here, when they were having the issues with the left header a while back, have dealt with Karen and been taken care of without any problem.

The fact that they are listening at all is more than some other companies would do, IMO.

[Chief]

Chief....agree with you on all points.  Karen is great, from all reports I've ever heard, and will do everything she can to accomodate the customer.  I have first hand experience with her customer service on a very minor issue, and she was extremely helpful.  I think if you and others approach this in a logical/rational way, presenting the facts which are causing problems on the CVO's, and also showing them that any other HD bike with the same oil cooler might have the same issues, they will at least consider the changes.  Making the point that everyone is anticipating more and more of the full time closed loop systems to come out in the near future, and we would all like to plan ahead as much as possible, and those future systems might also use an industry standard O2 sensor like Bosch, might help them understand and wrap their heads around the issue and the effect it could have on future sales.  It would be much more cost effective to make the small change necessary, even if it just means slightly changing the location of the bung and not using a different type, at this point in time rather than getting more and more systems out there on the market and have the issue come up more often later down the road.

I have no first hand experience, but have been told by people I trust that V&H's has very poor customer service after the sale.  That is one reason I chose RH's for my bike.

At least with RH, there is a good point of contact in Karen.  Several people on here, when they were having the issues with the left header a while back, have dealt with Karen and been taken care of without any problem.

The fact that they are listening at all is more than some other companies would do, IMO.

You're right on. The fact that they are even listening to the gripe is better than a lot of other companies out there.

We'll just have to let this play out and see what happens.

I just sent her an email that she is supposed to put in front of the CEO. I made it real short and included pictures. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] Hopefully something will come out of it that we can all be happy about.

Chief

[RedDevil]

I really don't anticipate RH doing anything about it.  As they stated, there hasn't been enough complaints to justify changing the manufacturing process that's in place.  They will, as witnessed by the extreme loyalty to RH products here, continue to sell their pipes as is, because most people probably won't go the Thundermaxx route, at least yet, because it is a relatively new technology for MC's.  And a lot of people that buy the non-CVO bikes, won't put oil coolers on their bikes, and if they do, will they put the one that comes on the CVO's?  (Remember, HD has two different coolers just in the touring line, don't know if the adapters are the same).  There's too many permutations for them to change.   Right now they are following the "needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" theory.  The fact that they are listening is nice, but saying something and not doing anything about it, is nothing more than lip service.
Cheers,  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

[Chief]

I really don't anticipate RH doing anything about it.  As they stated, there hasn't been enough complaints to justify changing the manufacturing process that's in place.  They will, as witnessed by the extreme loyalty to RH products here, continue to sell their pipes as is, because most people probably won't go the Thundermaxx route, at least yet, because it is a relatively new technology for MC's.  And a lot of people that buy the non-CVO bikes, won't put oil coolers on their bikes, and if they do, will they put the one that comes on the CVO's?  (Remember, HD has two different coolers just in the touring line, don't know if the adapters are the same).  There's too many permutations for them to change.   Right now they are following the "needs of the many, out weigh the needs of the few, or the one" theory.  The fact that they are listening is nice, but saying something and not doing anything about it, is nothing more than lip service.
Cheers,  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red

Red,

Most probably you're right, and I'm probably just pi$$in in the wind, but hey, ya gotta go sometime and my sense of direction is off at times.

Chief

[RedDevil]

Red,

Most probably you're right, and I'm probably just pi$$in in the wind, but hey, ya gotta go sometime and my sense of direction is off at times.

Chief

Chief,
Don't get me wrong...I commend you for "taking up the fight".  All to often, we accept what big business tells us and leave at that's just the way it's going to be.   I think if they got flooded with a bunch of complaints, then it affects their business case and bottom line, then they may do something about it.  
Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
Red