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[nixobilly]

Gents,

Just following this thread to try to understand what I need to do to modify my Thundermax w/auto tune to get my bike to perform like I think it should for my riding.

I sure as hell dont know as much about tuning bikes like most of you do.  I really like how my bike is performing after 500 miles of autotune.  My bike seems to be running as cool as it used to with SERT map84 and performs a lot better but the gas milage sux for a touring bike.  The default maps from Zippers will damn sure throw you off the bike if you are not careful!  I'm not a drag racer and dont ride it at 70% or more of throttle.  I dont know where y'all ride but that much throttle on my 110 would soon get me a handfull of tickets in any gear.  I would like to get about 38 - 42 mpg in cruising range 2700-2900 (70-75 in 5th and 80-85 in 6th) out on the road.  I dont want to go back to the lean conditions I experienced with the stock config but I might need to re-budget my gas costs and daily drive times for my 8k trip this summer to Nelson if I dont . 

I'm going to put tape on my throttle as suggested here so I can have a better understanding of my TPS vs RPM.  I'll also keep watching this thread so I can see what the smart guys are saying.

I'm also going to put a link in the Zippers forums so they can jump in and make suggestions.

Continue on with the great discussion (I'm learning alot),

Respectfully,

Mark

[Rhino]

OK Boyz & Girls,

After running a bit faster than Harry tonight, I feel better.  IH, in regards to the monitoring feature of the Auto Tune. It is interesting information to play back, and see what you ran, but here is the catch. The autoTune WILL do exactly what you want it to do. Meaning if you set an AFR, it will try and acheive the AFR. You can monitor the cyl temp, etc, but in short, the monitoring feature is what you can record, and then send that map to Zippers, and THEY can look in the back door, so to speak, and see more than what we can. 

Secondly, I am finding that the AFR we are setting as stock, is for more economy than Performance. On my bike, after a run yesterday, I pulled the plugs to check them, and found them to be a bit whiteish. I came back and re-adjusted the autotune to enrich the AFR's slightly at the low end, and set 12.1 to 1 at WOT.  As I have said in many earlier posts, I am not relying on the AFR's to be exact. I am using them as a reference to the power I can make.  I have been incrementaly decreasing the AFR a point or two at a time, from the stock Zippers map at 12.5 at WOT down to 12.1. It is improving the performance, but I always make slow changes, and then, only one parameter at a time, and save it.  Then, the autotune needs time to work, so you need to exercise the throttle on the road to see how it works. It will not be instantaneous, it will be gradual as the auto tuner learns the new curve.

Finally, for example, Harry is using the SERT and the WEGO recorder. The difference is that the WEGO RECORDS what the bike is putting out, vs, the AutoTune, which follows what you feed it.  The theory is good, but for me, I am liking the base map that Zippers did, and then tweak a little from there.   For me, the WEGO is an intersting device, but for me, the SERT becomes quite a chore to change, and then follow what the WEGO says to do. That is only my interpretation.

So in a perfect world, if the WEGO could interface with the AutoTune, then the recording process would show the actual AFR's and the actual other inportant details, but frankly, I think that the Zippers maps are close, and the minor tweaking is safer and will perform better.  The WEGO is for more experienced dudes, who need that tiny bit of extra. JMHO.

Rhino (Ronnie) (fastestjesterperiod)

[Ironhorse]

Rhino,

I'm like NixoBilly,

I love the way the bike runs. I just want to get 38-42mpgs. Right now I am getting about 30, so I know there's some leaning to be done somewhere. I just don't know where. Like you, when I make adjustments they are very small. Most of my efforts have been directed at freeway riding using the tps@afr setting. Now I'm thinking I should be working elsewhere. I'm tempted to change the Zippers over all setting of 13.1 to 1, and raise it. But then again, maybe not.

You know I HAD a WEGOII that I bought when Dan Fitmaurice and I were trying to tune my old Marelli system long distance via e-mail. I sold it when I went to the Zippers auto-tune because I thought the data mode was the same thing. Now you tell me the Zippers data mode is not doing a real time afr read, only posting what the ECM is producing. Did I get that right?

Any suggestions where to start leaning?

Mark

[Rhino]

IH,

You have not answered an earlier inquiry, telling me if the auto tune module is enabled.  The way you are talking here, it's like you are on bypass.  Let me know.

Rhino

[Ironhorse]

IH,

You have not answered an earlier inquiry, telling me if the auto tune module is enabled.  The way you are talking here, it's like you are on bypass.  Let me know.

Rhino

Rhino,

As best I can tell it is on auto-tune. From the tool bar, it's CONFIGURE, then MODULE SETTINGS, then CLOSED LOOP PROCESSING. Or when opening a file, it's FILE, then NEW, then CLOSED LOOP FORMAT. Then while the engine is running I click MONITOR, and am able to call up the front and rear AFRs and other data.

I'm not being a smart ass, but that's the way I know if it is.
Would it help if I sent you my current MAP?


Mark

[Rhino]

Rhino,

As best I can tell it is on auto-tune. From the tool bar, it's CONFIGURE, then MODULE SETTINGS, then CLOSED LOOP PROCESSING. Or when opening a file, it's FILE, then NEW, then CLOSED LOOP FORMAT. Then while the engine is running I click MONITOR, and am able to call up the front and rear AFRs and other data.

I'm not being a smart ass, but that's the way I know if it is.
Would it help if I sent you my current MAP?


Mark

Not really, becasue the actual map is not accessible. Also it sounds like you are in auto tune. Select 1. configure 2. Clsed Loop Module Settings 3. Make sure the Closed Lopp Pricessing andAuto Tune are checkd on the MAP side. Unles you are connected to the Module, you cant see the connection status of the MODULE> SO, hook it up and make sure the Module side ischecked too.  DO NOT use the override, or any other overrides. 

 Make sure you followed the instructions carefully for the IAC AUTO setup. Tis is a very critical step. f your bike is hot, wait till the next day and do that run from a cold engine to 289 degrees. Then change that setting for YOUR bike as per the manual. It is self explanatory.  From that point on, the map Zippers created by the boyz up north will work exceptionally well.  Make sure you selected the correct map, for example, 110, Rineharts stock baffle, air cleaner wheter Zipps 2.125, or 2.3/4 etc.  The map you profile, if the components are matched on the map selection, will work well.

The changes I have made, as stated earlier, are SMALL tweaks from the original. Each time I make a change, I save it as a new map ID and load it up. Then I give it some time to acclimate to the bike and it's new settings.  If you are doing anything to change it, you should probably be richening it up, but a point at a time. 

I will help anyone that asks regarding the AutoTune, and I truly like it and believe in it.  It is quite an ingenious device without question.

If one looks at the AFR tables, here is one example.  Around 2000-2300 ranges in the maps, I noted they were leaned out compared to the other settings, close to 11.7 degrees of throttle. (That is 0 for those still thinking in percentages)  SO,naturally I enrichended it a bit to match other AFRS.  Well, Zippers did that for a good reason. The richening resulted in a pop on decel. Duh, I put that back. 

Unless you have a bike with really special circumstances, you should have a good match found withing the ZIppers tables. USE IT.

Finally, someone mentioned taping a mark on the Throttle.  It aint gonna work with the ZIppers, use the Point Trak while monitoring.

Rhino(fastestautotunedjesterontheplanet)

[Jester_Red07]

Not really, becasue the actual map is not accessible. Also it sounds like you are in auto tune. Select 1. configure 2. Clsed Loop Module Settings 3. Make sure the Closed Lopp Pricessing andAuto Tune are checkd on the MAP side. Unles you are connected to the Module, you cant see the connection status of the MODULE> SO, hook it up and make sure the Module side ischecked too.  DO NOT use the override, or any other overrides. 

 Make sure you followed the instructions carefully for the IAC AUTO setup. Tis is a very critical step. f your bike is hot, wait till the next day and do that run from a cold engine to 289 degrees. Then change that setting for YOUR bike as per the manual. It is self explanatory.  From that point on, the map Zippers created by the boyz up north will work exceptionally well.  Make sure you selected the correct map, for example, 110, Rineharts stock baffle, air cleaner wheter Zipps 2.125, or 2.3/4 etc.  The map you profile, if the components are matched on the map selection, will work well.

The changes I have made, as stated earlier, are SMALL tweaks from the original. Each time I make a change, I save it as a new map ID and load it up. Then I give it some time to acclimate to the bike and it's new settings.  If you are doing anything to change it, you should probably be richening it up, but a point at a time. 

I will help anyone that asks regarding the AutoTune, and I truly like it and believe in it.  It is quite an ingenious device without question.

If one looks at the AFR tables, here is one example.  Around 2000-2300 ranges in the maps, I noted they were leaned out compared to the other settings, close to 11.7 degrees of throttle. (That is 0 for those still thinking in percentages)  SO,naturally I enrichended it a bit to match other AFRS.  Well, Zippers did that for a good reason. The richening resulted in a pop on decel. Duh, I put that back. 

Unless you have a bike with really special circumstances, you should have a good match found withing the ZIppers tables. USE IT.

Finally, someone mentioned taping a mark on the Throttle.  It aint gonna work with the ZIppers, use the Point Trak while monitoring.

Rhino(fastestautotunedjesterontheplanet)

Rhino,
 could you give us a brief description of the point track and how to use it???
Thanks

[Unbalanced]

Chief,

How many samples are you using when your deriving your numbers? 

[Ironhorse]

Not really, becasue the actual map is not accessible. Also it sounds like you are in auto tune. Select 1. configure 2. Clsed Loop Module Settings 3. Make sure the Closed Lopp Pricessing andAuto Tune are checkd on the MAP side. Unles you are connected to the Module, you cant see the connection status of the MODULE> SO, hook it up and make sure the Module side ischecked too.  DO NOT use the override, or any other overrides. 

 Make sure you followed the instructions carefully for the IAC AUTO setup. Tis is a very critical step. f your bike is hot, wait till the next day and do that run from a cold engine to 289 degrees. Then change that setting for YOUR bike as per the manual. It is self explanatory.  From that point on, the map Zippers created by the boyz up north will work exceptionally well.  Make sure you selected the correct map, for example, 110, Rineharts stock baffle, air cleaner wheter Zipps 2.125, or 2.3/4 etc.  The map you profile, if the components are matched on the map selection, will work well.

The changes I have made, as stated earlier, are SMALL tweaks from the original. Each time I make a change, I save it as a new map ID and load it up. Then I give it some time to acclimate to the bike and it's new settings.  If you are doing anything to change it, you should probably be richening it up, but a point at a time. 

I will help anyone that asks regarding the AutoTune, and I truly like it and believe in it.  It is quite an ingenious device without question.

If one looks at the AFR tables, here is one example.  Around 2000-2300 ranges in the maps, I noted they were leaned out compared to the other settings, close to 11.7 degrees of throttle. (That is 0 for those still thinking in percentages)  SO,naturally I enrichended it a bit to match other AFRS.  Well, Zippers did that for a good reason. The richening resulted in a pop on decel. Duh, I put that back. 

Unless you have a bike with really special circumstances, you should have a good match found withing the ZIppers tables. USE IT.

Finally, someone mentioned taping a mark on the Throttle.  It aint gonna work with the ZIppers, use the Point Trak while monitoring.

Rhino(fastestautotunedjesterontheplanet)

Rhino,

My bike is in auto tune and it runs great. The IAC is set properly too.
I just want to get some better mpgs. I guess what I am asking, is where should I pull fuel in the MAP?

Mark

[Chief]

Chief,

How many samples are you using when your deriving your numbers? 

Good question Harry. I have not changed from the default, which I believe is 5.

Got your VM just before dinner last night. I'll shout back at you today.

Chief

[Unbalanced]

Chief,

What I found is if you only use 5 samples your going to find that your having to adjust the tables almost every single run with lots of disparity from run to run.  The numbers will just keep bouncing around.   Try using 15 to 20 and at the lower end and 10 to 15 at the top end when your just gathering data.   When I was testing idle and up to 5 percent I used 25 and found the numbers settled in a whole lot better.   

Have you verified for whatever reason that your Thermo gun is accurate like in the refrigerator or at an air conditioning duct?   Before you go off and drive yourself nuts worrying just thought it might be a good sanity check.

[Chief]

Chief,

What I found is if you only use 5 samples your going to find that your having to adjust the tables almost every single run with lots of disparity from run to run.  The numbers will just keep bouncing around.   Try using 15 to 20 and at the lower end and 10 to 15 at the top end when your just gathering data.   When I was testing idle and up to 5 percent I used 25 and found the numbers settled in a whole lot better.   

Have you verified for whatever reason that your Thermo gun is accurate like in the refrigerator or at an air conditioning duct?   Before you go off and drive yourself nuts worrying just thought it might be a good sanity check.

Since I've been doing transients, I've kept it low. I'm sampling at 5/sec, so the default setting of 5 means I need to be in each cell for 1 second. That's kind of hard when doing pulls at higher throttle settings.

For steady state cruise setting I'll be able to move it up to smooth out the data.

As for the temp gun, it's a professional gun, and I spent the higher bucks on it so I could believe accuracy claims of 1%. I guess I could boil a brick and shoot it to check the temps, but right now, I don't doubt it's accuracy yet. That jug is hot, and my well calibrated fingertips verified it when I tried to touch it.

It's time to unleash the engineer inside and be very methodical in determing just what is going on. Time to get into data analysis mode.

Thanks for everyone's interest and help on this.

Chief

[Rhino]

Rhino,

My bike is in auto tune and it runs great. The IAC is set properly too.
I just want to get some better mpgs. I guess what I am asking, is where should I pull fuel in the MAP?

Mark

I think you answered your own question "it runs great".  As far as mileage, there is no correct answer. Most really don't care as long as they get 160 mi to a tank or much more.  Rideing style has a lot to do with that. Personally, I would NOT go leaner than a provided map.  You know when the sticker on a Hummer says 21 mpg at the dealership?  Try 12 mpg in the real world.

Rhino(besttunedjesterbyzippers)

[Ironhorse]

I think you answered your own question "it runs great".  As far as mileage, there is no correct answer. Most really don't care as long as they get 160 mi to a tank or much more.  Rideing style has a lot to do with that. Personally, I would NOT go leaner than a provided map.  You know when the sticker on a Hummer says 21 mpg at the dealership?  Try 12 mpg in the real world.

Rhino(besttunedjesterbyzippers)

The thing I don't understand is that a lot of bikes with the same or more radical builds get better milage, and I am a very conservative rider. Others get in the high 30-low 40s, and I get low 30s. The most I get our of a tank is about 130 miles. When my bike was "stock" M&M tuned with an SERT, I got 38-42mpgs regularly. When I went to the Zippers M&M Conversion kit, I got 26mpgs. When I converted over to Delphi with auto-tune it came up to 30mpgs. Nothing in my build or riding style has changed, so I am inclined to believe that getting 38-42mpgs back is possible. While 30mpgs is acceptable to Zippers, I'd like to think I can improve it.

Rhino, what kind of mpgs do you get?

[kbiforce]

Hello to all! I have been watching this thread with great interest. I was on the fence for quite a while about the TMAT but decided to go for it. While I am waiting for my unit to arrive, I have been watching for replies on mileage. Seems everyone is happy with the driveability end of the TMAT, but what about mileage figures? I just got back from a road test after putting tape on the throttle and marking where I ride at cruising/ freeeway speeds. From what I can tell from looking at the PowerCommander light segments, 60mph @ 2,500 rpm is approx. 20 % throttle and 74 @ 3,000 rpm is approx. 30%. Does this sound about right to all of you? I don't know if I should run the standard 13.0-1 or change the cruise right away. I agree with the other posts about keeping mileage in the upper 30's to low 40's. Let me know what all of you think out there. ( yeah, I'm getting excited about the TMAX!)