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[Alesius]

Don't want to hurt national feelings, but IMHO Harleys are the most emotional bikes in the world. I own one because I like the looks, the "way of life" it represents, and because it seems to "live" when I ride it - it creates emotions (and HD marketing supports that very well). Fortunately I don't need it for my work nor commute - I wouldn't even consider HD for this. I own it just for the fun.
HDs are legacy bikes with old technology (except for the VRod probably), overpriced, far too heavy, but also with a soul (sometimes positive, sometimes annoying) that's why fans like us buy it.
Other brands have all their own strenghts and weaknesses, but  BMW has managed to implement an almost perfect compromise of modern technology, efficiency, handling and comfort. The thing they lack most are emotions IMO (I had a BMW and sold it because I felt it was so perfect it was boring).
So while I'm a big fan of HD, I wouldn't want one if I was a police officer and had to use it for my daily work.

Just my view...

[Twolanerider]

Don't want to hurt national feelings, but IMHO Harleys are the most emotional bikes in the world. I own one because I like the looks, the "way of life" it represents, and because it seems to "live" when I ride it - it creates emotions (and HD marketing supports that very well). Fortunately I don't need it for my work nor commute - I wouldn't even consider HD for this. I own it just for the fun.
HDs are legacy bikes with old technology (except for the VRod probably), overpriced, far too heavy, but also with a soul (sometimes positive, sometimes annoying) that's why fans like us buy it.
Other brands have all their own strenghts and weaknesses, but  BMW has managed to implement an almost perfect compromise of modern technology, efficiency, handling and comfort. The thing they lack most are emotions IMO (I had a BMW and sold it because I felt it was so perfect it was boring).
So while I'm a big fan of HD, I wouldn't want one if I was a police officer and had to use it for my daily work.

Just my view...

And to prove that advertising works and that CLIO awards are actually well earned ^


Bike has a soul.  What a load of bupkus and self-justification to be pleased with our purchases.  We all do it.  But what a load.  Bike has no soul nor a spirit nor a button that leads to epiphanies.  It's a machine.  We certainly have reactions to do different looks, sounds and rhythms.  There's even some decent science behind how some cycles and resonances affect us.  But a cool looking machine that combines gas and air in a controlled explosion to propel us down the road in a relaxing or enjoyable way at higher safety risks than other vehicular transportation is still just a two wheeled machine.  Ain't no soul there.

[grc]

Did you really read what I wrote? I didn't make a single excuse for HD' s lack of quality. I did say the MOCO rested on the sales momentum of the last two decades (without any forward thinking). Maybe the EPA has looked the other way but they certainly aren't doing that now. And there is no question that tree hugging environmentalists now run your government. They want everyone to drive electric and battery cars, ride bicycles and buy solar panels.             

"As more and more environmentalists are elected or appointed into government departments their influence has become more and more visable. Some would even argue that the EPA is now the real government. It appears to run everything from agriculture to oil to fisheries. So why should it be a surprise when influential bureaucrats spend tax dollars on what environmentalists within these agencies perceive as more environmentally friendly motorcycles.  It appears the government has gone from protecting HD during the 1980's from it's competitors to driving nails in the MOCO's coffin."

Yes, I did read what you wrote.  And your comments sure made it sound like you want to blame government and the EPA and environmentalists for Harley's lost sales.  Sorry, but the government, the EPA, and tree huggers have not caused or even contributed to the sorry state of affairs in Milwaukee.  Harley management over the past four or five decades can claim full responsibility for their shortsighted decisions and their "take the money and run" philosophy.  Btw, there was nothing in the original story indicating that the decisions to buy different brands had anything whatsoever to do with environmental issues.  The Harley's that would have been purchased meet the same regulations as the BMW's or Kawasaki's or Honda's.  So your post trying to tie the lost sales to an environmental issue seems to be more about your personal agenda than the real cause for the decision.

I can't help but get the impression from your comments that you aren't a big fan of environmental regulations.  Perhaps you are lucky enough to live in a pristine environment where the air is clean and fresh all the time, the lakes and streams are clean and unpolluted and teeming with wildlife, and everything is wonderful.  If so, you are a very lucky guy.  But for those of us who live downwind of all the polluting industry across the USA, environmental regulations since the 1970's have made a huge positive difference in our lives.  Air quality has been steadily improving over the past three decades, as has the quality of our lakes and streams, and toxic dumps have been cleaned up.  None of those improvements are the result of industry voluntarily doing the right thing.  Without the Clean Air Act and the EPA, this country would likely be a cesspool just like China and many third world nations.  Blame the EPA if you want, or little green men from Mars, or a conspiracy from those pesky Japanese bike companies, but the fact remains that H-D management has had more than sufficient time and money to fix their problems and become truly world class.  They, and they alone, are responsible for their failure to do so.  Suggesting otherwise is disingenuous at best.


Jerry

[grc]

And to prove that advertising works and that CLIO awards are actually well earned ^


Bike has a soul.  What a load of bupkus and self-justification to be pleased with our purchases.  We all do it.  But what a load.  Bike has no soul nor a spirit nor a button that leads to epiphanies.  It's a machine.  We certainly have reactions to do different looks, sounds and rhythms.  There's even some decent science behind how some cycles and resonances affect us.  But a cool looking machine that combines gas and air in a controlled explosion to propel us down the road in a relaxing or enjoyable way at higher safety risks than other vehicular transportation is still just a two wheeled machine.  Ain't no soul there.

               Well said Don. 

Funny how easy it is to brainwash millions of folks.  Harley was barely holding on in the 1980's, they got the brilliant idea to promote the bad boy image and then the "lifestyle", and they got tons of us to bite and buy a less capable and much less reliable product at a higher price than what we had paid before for better bikes.  I sure hope they took good care of the marketing guy who came up with all the BS, since he is the one truly responsible for the success they enjoyed in the 90's and early 2000's.  If they want to continue to enjoy such success without really making the product world class, I'd suggest they get Apple to endorse the bikes and maybe put an Apple logo on them.  The younger generation isn't into Harley all that much, but they will buy an old dried out dog turd if it has an Apple logo on it, and actually stand in line for days to be the first to pay the exorbitant prices.  Sounds like the sort of thing the brain trust at Harley could embrace.


Jerry

[twinotter]

 We as a group who ride motorcycles are a very peculiar lot!! We choose to venture forth on machines that are at best far more dangerous on a daily basis than the average car.
If we where practical, no one would even attempt to go forth on such a brute. It has nothing to do with being practical, I think far more to do with personal traits and a sense of control in ones life. 
I think for most of us (especially long time riders) it is about a spirit of individuality, about meeting the odds and the enviornment head on, maybe like our ancestors did on a horse. Its something thats very hard to explain to a non rider.
With 45 yrs of riding, I still always feel the rush of air, the thrill of bending my bike into a curve, or the satisfaction of arriving at a destination. Some days its harder to accomplish this, but it always happens to me. It may only happen for a minute or it may last all day, but it happens every time I straddle my motorcycle.
Do we buy into a specific brand, or a lifestyle presented by a brand. You bet we do. We buy for nostalgia, a certain look or style, each of us choose what works for us. A Harley represents all of this to thousands worldwide, while others pick another choice that fills their desires and needs. Ride when, where, whatever you choose, I'll be the one waving as you pass.
In the end, some of my finest days on earth have been spent behind the handlebars of the model and type I was riding at the time.  twinotter

[Banana man]

We as a group who ride motorcycles are a very peculiar lot!! We choose to venture forth on machines that are at best far more dangerous on a daily basis than the average car.
If we where practical, no one would even attempt to go forth on such a brute. It has nothing to do with being practical, I think far more to do with personal traits and a sense of control in ones life. 
I think for most of us (especially long time riders) it is about a spirit of individuality, about meeting the odds and the enviornment head on, maybe like our ancestors did on a horse. Its something thats very hard to explain to a non rider.
With 45 yrs of riding, I still always feel the rush of air, the thrill of bending my bike into a curve, or the satisfaction of arriving at a destination. Some days its harder to accomplish this, but it always happens to me. It may only happen for a minute or it may last all day, but it happens every time I straddle my motorcycle.
Do we buy into a specific brand, or a lifestyle presented by a brand. You bet we do. We buy for nostalgia, a certain look or style, each of us choose what works for us. A Harley represents all of this to thousands worldwide, while others pick another choice that fills their desires and needs. Ride when, where, whatever you choose, I'll be the one waving as you pass.
In the end, some of my finest days on earth have been spent behind the handlebars of the model and type I was riding at the time.  twinotter

Been riding 40 years here and I agree Some of the best days of my life and some of the best
memories in my life have been behind a set of handlebars.

[Snapperkid]

I think it's a shame that a "Union" State like Michigan would opt for anything other than a Harley. Yes, plenty of whiners on here about BMW this, Ducati that and how much better they are. In the end, you sissys need to go to their forum and join their club, mingle with their kind. Won't take you long to figure how weird those cats are and how they could really give a rat's behind about you. I haven't met one yet that wasn't a little "different".

If Harley switched gears and started making Harley's that looked like and performed as good as BMW's or Ducati, they would be out of business quick. No real Harley rider would want one, just the wannabe's. In the USA, Harley is king and they stay that way by being true to Harley enthusiest. Harley ain't in bed with the EPA, they just play the system and play it well.

Ever been to a BMW rally with no Harley riders around? Worse than watching paint dry.

[SneakyPete]

I think it's a shame that a "Union" State like Michigan would opt for anything other than a Harley. Yes, plenty of whiners on here about BMW this, Ducati that and how much better they are. In the end, you sissys need to go to their forum and join their club, mingle with their kind. Won't take you long to figure how weird those cats are and how they could really give a rat's behind about you. I haven't met one yet that wasn't a little "different".

If Harley switched gears and started making Harley's that looked like and performed as good as BMW's or Ducati, they would be out of business quick. No real Harley rider would want one, just the wannabe's. In the USA, Harley is king and they stay that way by being true to Harley enthusiest. Harley ain't in bed with the EPA, they just play the system and play it well.

Ever been to a BMW rally with no Harley riders around? Worse than watching paint dry.

[Twolanerider]

I think it's a shame that a "Union" State like Michigan would opt for anything other than a Harley. Yes, plenty of whiners on here about BMW this, Ducati that and how much better they are. In the end, you sissys need to go to their forum and join their club, mingle with their kind. Won't take you long to figure how weird those cats are and how they could really give a rat's behind about you. I haven't met one yet that wasn't a little "different".

If Harley switched gears and started making Harley's that looked like and performed as good as BMW's or Ducati, they would be out of business quick. No real Harley rider would want one, just the wannabe's. In the USA, Harley is king and they stay that way by being true to Harley enthusiest. Harley ain't in bed with the EPA, they just play the system and play it well.

Ever been to a BMW rally with no Harley riders around? Worse than watching paint dry.

That's the flavor of reaction that often makes others look at Harley riders with some suspicion.  The we-are-king attitude and condescending tone about other's rides and their "kind" only further extends lingering public distrust of "bikers" in general.  

No one else should give a rat's ass what I ride.  And I don't give a rat's ass what anyone else rides.  My now decades old line is "I don't care what you ride, who you ride, where you ride or how you ride; just so long as you ride."  And even with that I was wrong.  Finally figured out I really don't care about the last part either.  If someone else rides or not doesn't matter either.  So long as they leave me alone to ride as I please and not hurt anyone else in the process I am (and should be) just fine.

The whole "we are king" attitude and it's because of "the machine" and its "soul" and all the other nonsense is just more of the bite taken off two generations of advertising.  There is (or at least used to be) a biker culture that had nothing to do with 1%, MCs or the other perceived nonsense.  

Some of that changed with the stupid movies driving a public perception 30-40 years ago but, honestly, that was a short lived phenomenon.  Some of that changed with money available to MCs for criminal activity and the spread of that activity coupled with broader news coverage and cycles.  But we all know that is also still generally isolated from the riding community at large.  

What we forget is that when what we now call the "community" of riders or "bikers" first started the men rode anything and leathers were mostly brown.  That they rode was all that mattered.  But as a result of media and other advertising we were shaped toward the notions that are now so prevalent about Harleys.  Again, it's bupkus, but it's a damned effective story to tell.  Either from the company's perspective or from the owners' who just needs to feel a little better about themselves; it's a damned effective story.

[charles05663]

I think it's a shame that a "Union" State like Michigan would opt for anything other than a Harley. Yes, plenty of whiners on here about BMW this, Ducati that and how much better they are. In the end, you sissys need to go to their forum and join their club, mingle with their kind. Won't take you long to figure how weird those cats are and how they could really give a rat's behind about you. I haven't met one yet that wasn't a little "different".

If Harley switched gears and started making Harley's that looked like and performed as good as BMW's or Ducati, they would be out of business quick. No real Harley rider would want one, just the wannabe's. In the USA, Harley is king and they stay that way by being true to Harley enthusiest. Harley ain't in bed with the EPA, they just play the system and play it well.

Ever been to a BMW rally with no Harley riders around? Worse than watching paint dry.

The issue is not bike/style, it is the quality, reliability and attitude the company has toward its customers that upsets members here.  It is frustrating to spend 30K+ on a bike only to have issues with it.  When you try to have it fixed, you hear "oh that is normal."  When the 110 first came out, there were massive problems with the engine.  Why did not the company fix that before it was released?  Did they not know about it?  They tout their testing of their products; the last issue of HOG is an example of that.

30 years ago, the imports were eating the American auto industry alive.  The American auto industry changed and started to compete.  HD needs to do the same.  As the quality of automotive and bikes improved, I believe HD riders are less tolerate of problems because they have seen the others change and produce a better product and not raise the cost in the process.

As far as an American bike, you would be hard pressed to find any accessory in a HD store that is made in the USA.  To me, that is the saddest part of the story.  They tout it has an American bike and decorate it with anything but American products.

[guppytrash]

The issue is not bike/style, it is the quality, reliability and attitude the company has toward its customers that upsets members here.  It is frustrating to spend 30K+ on a bike only to have issues with it.  When you try to have it fixed, you hear "oh that is normal."  When the 110 first came out, there were massive problems with the engine.  Why did not the company fix that before it was released?  Did they not know about it?  They tout their testing of their products; the last issue of HOG is an example of that.

30 years ago, the imports were eating the American auto industry alive.  The American auto industry changed and started to compete.  HD needs to do the same.  As the quality of automotive and bikes improved, I believe HD riders are less tolerate of problems because they have seen the others change and produce a better product and not raise the cost in the process.

As far as an American bike, you would be hard pressed to find any accessory in a HD store that is made in the USA.  To me, that is the saddest part of the story.  They tout it has an American bike and decorate it with anything but American products.

Perfectly said Charles!!
Except for this "The issue is not bike/style".  For me the Harley is the perfect bike/style.
I don't want plastic clad bike or light and 14000rpms.  For me the heavy chunk of a harley with a wide seat and low rpm torque motor is exactly what I want to ride. 
I have had some Jap bikes and they were great but I really do like the miles on my Harleys.
But you nailed all the reasons I look for the alternative. 
After the money I have spent on my 09 CVO I am about done. 
It is just getting ridiculous.
 
Just about to put my third compensator on.
I am part of the failed lifter crowd.
Heated grips and seat cover didn't make it thru the first year so they were covered under warranty.
Numerous Cupped tires
Failed radio
Failed GPS
Not to mention the thousands of dollars spent trying to get rid of the HEAT...pipes, tuners, dyno runs,
Based upon info here around 30k-35k I can expect to be replacing the crank,crank bearings and oil pump.

[Midnight Rider]

X2

[BigLew55]

If Harley switched gears and started making Harley's that looked like and performed as good as BMW's or Ducati, they would be out of business quick. No real Harley rider would want one, just the wannabe's.

Does this look like "rationalization" to anyone but me?

I'm not trying to point fingers, Snapperkid, but this sentence really describes what is the problem.

[VaEagle]

Just my .02 but I see the choice of bike to ride as one decision made with financial/scientific choices in mind or is it an emotional choice.

Many of us got our first ride on our grandfather's,father's or uncle's bike and have very fond memories of that bike. Back then there was very few import bikes so it was usually a Harley or Indian (maybe Triumph). Also remember back then "made in japan" was considered a bad thing.
We then associate a fun care free time with the feel and sound. Yet because we were young we had to settle for a cheaper import when they started arriving in the U.S. many of us dreamed about owning a Harley and could only afford to own one later in life, that helps instill the images in our brains so it becomes emotional.
Harley is very good at selling the emotion of ownership, not just in ads and other media but with the HOG programs and magazines. It makes you feel like part of a family. (May be a disfunctional one though?)
I think they have painted themselves into a corner though when most of their sales efforts are dealing with nostalgia and keeping the old traditions. They have created a customer base that is stubborn and resists change even if the change is better.

My first street bike was in the 1970s and it was a Honda, back then there was no Honda clubs or benefit runs etc. to meet other Honda riders so most riders I knew rode alone or with one or two others.
I can see younger riders choosing an import bike for financial and practical reasons. Cheaper to buy initially, not many mods needed to get it to run right so you have a turn key and just ride ability.
I agree with others in that we need to stick together no matter what we ride and should just support and respect each person's decision to ride a particular brand or style of bike
After all you aren't making their bike payments and they aren't making yours.

[Alesius]

@Twolanerider: I'm fully aware that a bike is a machine and has no "soul" in a religious sense.
When you read my post you'll see that I describe the unique style and "imperfection" of a Harleys as thei soul. You can't explain it to somebody who has never driven such a bike, but we "feel" it - why else would we buy such overprized bikes (and yes, I know HD marketing does a good job, but that wasn't the reason why I bought one.)
You can use different words for it - for me my bike has it's moods, good and bad days, makes me often happy and drives me sometimes crazy. So it must have something like a soul