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[workingdan]

Ok so I am getting ready to change my cams in my 2013 CVO ultra with 1500 miles on it. After reading this http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=77186.0 im thinking do I need to change my cam bearings? Sounds like it comes with the upgraded bearings. Whats your thought?

[grc]

Ok so I am getting ready to change my cams in my 2013 CVO ultra with 1500 miles on it. After reading this http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=77186.0 im thinking do I need to change my cam bearings? Sounds like it comes with the upgraded bearings. Whats your thought?

Harley claims the CVO engines already come with upgraded cam bearings for 2013.  A visual inspection during the cam change should verify that, and if you already have the upgraded bearings I can't imagine why you would need to change them.


Jerry

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Just recieved a replacement set of engine cases from the Moco, for a 110"er.
(prior shop fubared the build)
They came thru with full roller cam bearings, surprising, and refreshing.
Scott

[sadunbar]

Harley claims the CVO engines already come with upgraded cam bearings for 2013.  A visual inspection during the cam change should verify that, and if you already have the upgraded bearings I can't imagine why you would need to change them.


Jerry

They do!  2013 CVO engines come with the upgraded cam bearings...   Seen them with my own eyes... 

[workingdan]

Cool so being that my motor has low mileage I should be good with out changing them?

[sadunbar]

Cool so being that my motor has low mileage I should be good with out changing them?

yep...

[Unbalanced]

While you don't have to its low to negligible miles, but personally I would just to get the C lifters out of there.  Had they been the predecessor "B" I would have no issue leaving them.   To me its cheap insurance going with the S&S lifters and the path is already cleared while your doing the cam.

[sadunbar]

While you don't have to its low to negligible miles, but personally I would just to get the C lifters out of there.  Had they been the predecessor "B" I would have no issue leaving them.   To me its cheap insurance going with the S&S lifters and the path is already cleared while your doing the cam.

He's talking cam bearings, Harry... 

Don't know if he's planning on new lifters for his new cams or not...

[Twolanerider]

He's talking cam bearings, Harry... 

One goes around.  One goes up and down.  Not enough difference to worry about Scott..... 

[Unbalanced]

Really I didnt realize that lifters went up and down  .. thank goodness for the all the knowledge on this site.     .       

Yep I think thats what I typed, yep it was Lifters, the guy is changing cams might be something he wants to consider over the C versions that are in there.   Who knows maybe he has no idea and it was actually something he or someone else might not have known to consider doing.     
 

[workingdan]

So what's the deal with the lifters? Are the stock ones junk?

[DCFIREMANN]

So what's the deal with the lifters? Are the stock ones junk?

Yes they are.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[Unbalanced]

^ x2

[grc]

On the other hand, if you were determined to replace ALL the parts Harley installs that are substandard junk, you would be a very busy (and poor) person.  I was trying to remember the last time I bought a car and had to immediately replace a bunch of substandard parts, and after thinking all the way back to 1969 I couldn't remember a single one.  And not a single one of the new cars I bought from 1972 to present ever had a major failure of any kind.  Hmmmmmmmmmm? 

Assuming a couple hundred more bucks won't break the bank, a better set of lifters might not be a bad idea while you're in there.  But be careful what you consider to be a better set of lifters.  There is a  lot of hype out there, and lots of other brands besides Harley have also had failures.  Screamin' Eagle, Jim's, Fueling, etc. have all had plenty of bad press, so it's not just the stock Harley crap. 


Jerry

[Lever]

x2  good point 

[bikerboy53]

Workingdan,
I just had a stock lifter failure on my 2010 CVO Ultra yesterday (Sept. 29). It only has 25,000 miles on it. We were out for an easy ride with friends and the motor started making a bunch of racket! Took it right to the dealership and they tore it down. The hard facing on the roller of the front (exhaust) lifter started coming apart. The metal particles took out both camshafts and the oil pump. The crank *looks* OK, but it's hard to tell where all the metal might have gone...

Now I'm debating between a slight upgrade/rebuild, or maybe an SE120R. The rebuild would be less expensive, but the 120 might be more fun -and we tow a trailer a lot. The bike is our main source of recreation, so the BSR says to do whatever I want. Gotta love that girl!  It's easier to make these decisions when she lays down the law.  What to do, what to do??

[Unbalanced]

Bikerboy53,

That is sure would be an easy decision if I had to make it, 120r over a 110 everyday especially when you have her blessing to boot.   Don't wait to long she might change her mind lol.

[DCFIREMANN]

Not to "stir the pot" here, but if I had the same problem I would do a rebuild with my original cases with AFTERMARKET PARTS!!!! You could build a bullet proof and extremely reliable motor. For me in a touring bike it's not about going warp speed. It is a good strong low end TQ motor with a little UMP up top when you need it for passing.

The build would include but not be limited to a set of aftermarket flywheels and rods that were trued,balanced and welded. A timken bearing in the left side of the case. A high flow oil pump and camplate change. From there you pic the cams and the compression and then decide what if any head work you would do. Add some roller rockers and a good set of strong pushrods. Then the only thing left would be TB and injectors. Those you may not want to change if you are looking for milage and TQ numbers.

Good luck with your decision.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[HILLSIDECYCLE.COM]

Not to "stir the pot" here, but if I had the same problem I would do a rebuild with my original cases with AFTERMARKET PARTS!!!! You could build a bullet proof and extremely reliable motor. For me in a touring bike it's not about going warp speed. It is a good strong low end TQ motor with a little UMP up top when you need it for passing.

The build would include but not be limited to a set of aftermarket flywheels and rods that were trued,balanced and welded. A timken bearing in the left side of the case. A high flow oil pump and camplate change. From there you pic the cams and the compression and then decide what if any head work you would do. Add some roller rockers and a good set of strong pushrods. Then the only thing left would be TB and injectors. Those you may not want to change if you are looking for milage and TQ numbers.

Good luck with your decision.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

THAT, is some damn good advice right there!!!!
Scott

[sadunbar]

Bikerboy53,

That is sure would be an easy decision if I had to make it, 120r over a 110 everyday especially when you have her blessing to boot.   Don't wait to long she might change her mind lol.

   x2

[Maladjusted]

DCFIREMANN has sound advice... if you go with the 120R motor... you still have a pressed crank (point of weakness), HD lifters (point of weakness, as you know), sub-par crank bearings... etc. etc.

Build your 110 motor into a stout, reliable motor.

[DCFIREMANN]

DCFIREMANN has sound advice... if you go with the 120R motor... you still have a pressed crank (point of weakness), HD lifters (point of weakness, as you know), sub-par crank bearings... etc. etc.

Build your 110 motor into a stout, reliable motor.

Thank you!!!!

If I am spending the monet I ONLY WANT TO SPEND IT ONCE!!!!! Oh and be happy in the process!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[DCFIREMANN]

One thing I did forget to point out. If you are rebuilding YOU CAN CHOOSE WHAT SIZE MOTOR you are going to build. If you want a 120 you can have it and have it bulletproof!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[cahdbiker]

DCFIREMANN, I also agree with you regarding rebuilding the 110. And I guess it would be great to have a 120, but I mostly take long trips and I was wondering, and maybe I missed it somewhere else, but what kind of mileage does a 120 get with passenger and luggage? Just curious. CAHDBIKER

Not to "stir the pot" here, but if I had the same problem I would do a rebuild with my original cases with AFTERMARKET PARTS!!!! You could build a bullet proof and extremely reliable motor. For me in a touring bike it's not about going warp speed. It is a good strong low end TQ motor with a little UMP up top when you need it for passing.

The build would include but not be limited to a set of aftermarket flywheels and rods that were trued,balanced and welded. A timken bearing in the left side of the case. A high flow oil pump and camplate change. From there you pic the cams and the compression and then decide what if any head work you would do. Add some roller rockers and a good set of strong pushrods. Then the only thing left would be TB and injectors. Those you may not want to change if you are looking for milage and TQ numbers.

Good luck with your decision.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[sadunbar]

DCFIREMANN, I also agree with you regarding rebuilding the 110. And I guess it would be great to have a 120, but I mostly take long trips and I was wondering, and maybe I missed it somewhere else, but what kind of mileage does a 120 get with passenger and luggage? Just curious. CAHDBIKER

Of course, mileage has a lot to do with the tune, cams and exhaust...  We did over 5000 miles on a trip in July, mostly in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming, and averaged over 40 mpg.  A high of 52 mpg and a low of 36 mpg.  Riding two up and pulling a Bushtec...  I'm over 15k miles on my 120r with no reliability issues of any kind...   

[DCFIREMANN]

Of course, mileage has a lot to do with the tune, cams and exhaust...  We did over 5000 miles on a trip in July, mostly in Colorado, Utah and Wyoming, and averaged over 40 mpg.  A high of 52 mpg and a low of 36 mpg.  Riding two up and pulling a Bushtec...  I'm over 15k miles on my 120r with no reliability issues of any kind...   

For a factory HD motor you are a little shy of the "BREAKING POINT" I wouldn't waste my money or time on a 120r. I know that is just my opinion. But I have been around HD for a long time and have played with a lot of motors in my time. Oh and do a lot of my own work. In Maryland (not sure about other states) YOU MUST have your CO for that motor or you may lose your bike to the Officier of the Law. Sure you will get it back but it is just something I don't want to go through. You have a set of cases on your bike that match your VIN, so why not build anything you like from the ground up?

When you buy a 120r you are restricted by what the MOTHER COMPANY wants you to buy. You are restricted by a lower end that is JUNK. It is JUNK because they save tens of thousands of dollars each year on building the motors. In the old days (pre 2003) the flywheels were bolted together and trued before they left the factory BY HAND. They were a lot stronger back then. Now they are pressed by a computer controlled press. In the past any runout past 004 was considered out of true. Now I'm not even sure what it is. But I know it a hell of a lot more runout. And when you have something spinning around on a set of bearings and it is not spinning square you have a time bomb in the making!! And speaking of bearings. In 2003 HD did away with the left side timken bearing setup. You lost a lot of strength when they did that. Just another cost saving mistake. 

It's your money and your down time oh and your vibration and excessive engine noise.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[SBB]

For a factory HD motor you are a little shy of the "BREAKING POINT" I wouldn't waste my money or time on a 120r. I know that is just my opinion. But I have been around HD for a long time and have played with a lot of motors in my time. Oh and do a lot of my own work. In Maryland (not sure about other states) YOU MUST have your CO for that motor or you may lose your bike to the Officier of the Law. Sure you will get it back but it is just something I don't want to go through. You have a set of cases on your bike that match your VIN, so why not build anything you like from the ground up?

When you buy a 120r you are restricted by what the MOTHER COMPANY wants you to buy. You are restricted by a lower end that is JUNK. It is JUNK because they save tens of thousands of dollars each year on building the motors. In the old days (pre 2003) the flywheels were bolted together and trued before they left the factory BY HAND. They were a lot stronger back then. Now they are pressed by a computer controlled press. In the past any runout past 004 was considered out of true. Now I'm not even sure what it is. But I know it a hell of a lot more runout. And when you have something spinning around on a set of bearings and it is not spinning square you have a time bomb in the making!! And speaking of bearings. In 2003 HD did away with the left side timken bearing setup. You lost a lot of strength when they did that. Just another cost saving mistake. 

It's your money and your down time oh and your vibration and excessive engine noise.

Be Safe

THE DAWG

Dawg

Love ya brother but did you look to see who's post you copied before you commented?
You can't even imagine the experience and knowledge sadunbar has concerning all things mechanical.
He has forgotten more than most of us know about motors.

SBB

[DCFIREMANN]

Dawg

Love ya brother but did you look to see who's post you copied before you commented?
You can't even imagine the experience and knowledge sadunbar has concerning all things mechanical.
He has forgotten more than most of us know about motors.

SBB

Chip I understand completely. But I am firm on my position about the lower ends the MOTHER COMPANY has given us since 2003. I also appreciate Sadunbar chiming in on this thread. I am even happier that he has had no problems with his factory 120r. I would love to see Sadunbar get 100k out of his motor. He is one of the few. I have seen the same problems with the 120r as we see with all of our CVO motors. That is why in this area Zippers is building their 120 from the ground up and people are buying the hell out of them. Not that I would buy another motor from them. Just sayin!!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[bikerboy53]

Guys,
I appreciate all the information and the opinions that have been shared. And I'm just as concerned about crankshaft life as anyone. My '07 SERK went thru 3 or 4 until (after the warranty ran out) I finally had my stocker revamped by Darkhorse Crankworks -with Timken conversion. Now that crank is better than plain old bulletproof -it's machine gun proof! Very happy with it! But we mostly ride the CVO Ultra now days. At least until the lifter failure! And so far we haven't had any crank problems with it. (Knock on wood!)

It's a tough decision because I have a max. budget of about $8,000 for whatever I decide to do with this bike. If I build a 120, it looks like (according to the Screamin' Eagle Parts catalog) I couldn't start with my 110 crankcase, and would have to buy a new one. Then have it converted to Timken, and buy a Darkhorse crank. Not to mention buying heads, cylinders, pistons, selecting cams, etc. By the time I do all that (and more) and add labor to the mix, I'm concerned that I would be way over my budget.
 
If I go with the SE120R I think I can come in right around my budget because it comes with most of what I will need, and I won't have as large a bill for engine assembly labor. I am encouraged by Sadunbar's good results with his 120 too. Sounds like he uses his bike exactly the way my wife and I use our bike. And his mileage is as good or better than what we get with our relatively stock 110 (with A/C and Fullsac pipes only).

I'm still weighing the options and trying to estimate the costs for each approach, but it's a tough decision. If I don't go with an off the shelf 120R then I can probably only build a 110 of some sort... And then again, there's no replacement for displacement!

Still undecided... 

[Unbalanced]

Guys,
I appreciate all the information and the opinions that have been shared. And I'm just as concerned about crankshaft life as anyone. My '07 SERK went thru 3 or 4 until (after the warranty ran out) I finally had my stocker revamped by Darkhorse Crankworks -with Timken conversion. Now that crank is better than plain old bulletproof -it's machine gun proof! Very happy with it! But we mostly ride the CVO Ultra now days. At least until the lifter failure! And so far we haven't had any crank problems with it. (Knock on wood!)

It's a tough decision because I have a max. budget of about $8,000 for whatever I decide to do with this bike. If I build a 120, it looks like (according to the Screamin' Eagle Parts catalog) I couldn't start with my 110 crankcase, and would have to buy a new one. Then have it converted to Timken, and buy a Darkhorse crank. Not to mention buying heads, cylinders, pistons, selecting cams, etc. By the time I do all that (and more) and add labor to the mix, I'm concerned that I would be way over my budget.
 
If I go with the SE120R I think I can come in right around my budget because it comes with most of what I will need, and I won't have as large a bill for engine assembly labor. I am encouraged by Sadunbar's good results with his 120 too. Sounds like he uses his bike exactly the way my wife and I use our bike. And his mileage is as good or better than what we get with our relatively stock 110 (with A/C and Fullsac pipes only).

I'm still weighing the options and trying to estimate the costs for each approach, but it's a tough decision. If I don't go with an off the shelf 120R then I can probably only build a 110 of some sort... And then again, there's no replacement for displacement!

Still undecided...  

Bikerboy53,

I also have a 120r and no crank issues, just a bit of noise from the lifters which I plan on swapping out with S&S ones.    At least 7 of the guys we ride with have the 120r's they either have no work done or some headwork done and the short front sprocket and knock on wood none have seen crank or any other issues and at least 4 are rode pretty hard.   Of those 3 have changed out the lifters to quiet the top end a bit very successfully.    Just havent seen enough evidence that the cranks are a big problem or epidemic like is being purported.  With the 120r you already have the power you would get out of a fully built 110 plus some and still have the chance to do more if you desired.  I would build a 117 out of a 110 before I build/rebuild a 110.    

Again good luck with whatever road you take on your project.

[DCFIREMANN]

Guys,
I appreciate all the information and the opinions that have been shared. And I'm just as concerned about crankshaft life as anyone. My '07 SERK went thru 3 or 4 until (after the warranty ran out) I finally had my stocker revamped by Darkhorse Crankworks -with Timken conversion. Now that crank is better than plain old bulletproof -it's machine gun proof! Very happy with it! But we mostly ride the CVO Ultra now days. At least until the lifter failure! And so far we haven't had any crank problems with it. (Knock on wood!)

It's a tough decision because I have a max. budget of about $8,000 for whatever I decide to do with this bike. If I build a 120, it looks like (according to the Screamin' Eagle Parts catalog) I couldn't start with my 110 crankcase, and would have to buy a new one. Then have it converted to Timken, and buy a Darkhorse crank. Not to mention buying heads, cylinders, pistons, selecting cams, etc. By the time I do all that (and more) and add labor to the mix, I'm concerned that I would be way over my budget.
 
If I go with the SE120R I think I can come in right around my budget because it comes with most of what I will need, and I won't have as large a bill for engine assembly labor. I am encouraged by Sadunbar's good results with his 120 too. Sounds like he uses his bike exactly the way my wife and I use our bike. And his mileage is as good or better than what we get with our relatively stock 110 (with A/C and Fullsac pipes only).

I'm still weighing the options and trying to estimate the costs for each approach, but it's a tough decision. If I don't go with an off the shelf 120R then I can probably only build a 110 of some sort... And then again, there's no replacement for displacement!
Still undecided... 

I guess I'm getting old. Why would you want to put the 120 in a TOURING BIKE?? I want something that is reliable. Well I guess weight is also an issue with the SEULTRA.

Harry you have not seen too many 120r failures because they don't have enough miles on them. If you do the 120r change your lifters right away. That is one of the weak points. Not only to quite it down but so it may live a little longer. 

Keep us posted either way you decide to go. Oh and good luck!!!!

Be Safe

THE DAWG

[mcflyer]

My Woods 555's lasted 4500 miles before the stock Harley lifter just stopped turning even though it never seized or showed any bearing damage at all.  The lifter tore up the cam and I changed to an after market lifter rather than the HD.  The 555 is not a radical cam and not all that different than the stock 255 cam so I don't think the cam caused it.  I run Mobil 1 so oil break down was not the issue.  A buddy of mine had a 96 built into a 110 with Fueling lifters and he had a lifter seize ruining his cam also.  So I'm not sure the aftermarket is the answer either. I look at the damaged lifter and still can't figure why it started skidding on the cam but a fellow engineer that works at Castrol said that sometimes the film strength of the oil is too strong and the lack of friction can allow the follower roller to stop turning and start skidding.  He said the hardness and surface finish of the materials has a lot to do with it how well the oil sticks to rotating parts inside an engine.  I still would not put in a cam with out changing lifters as i know of plenty of stock HD's that tore up liters and cams.

[bikerboy53]

My Woods 555's lasted 4500 miles before the stock Harley lifter just stopped turning even though it never seized or showed any bearing damage at all.  The lifter tore up the cam and I changed to an after market lifter rather than the HD.  The 555 is not a radical cam and not all that different than the stock 255 cam so I don't think the cam caused it.  I run Mobil 1 so oil break down was not the issue.  A buddy of mine had a 96 built into a 110 with Fueling lifters and he had a lifter seize ruining his cam also.  So I'm not sure the aftermarket is the answer either. I look at the damaged lifter and still can't figure why it started skidding on the cam but a fellow engineer that works at Castrol said that sometimes the film strength of the oil is too strong and the lack of friction can allow the follower roller to stop turning and start skidding.  He said the hardness and surface finish of the materials has a lot to do with it how well the oil sticks to rotating parts inside an engine.  I still would not put in a cam with out changing lifters as i know of plenty of stock HD's that tore up liters and cams.

mcflyer,
The hard facing on my lifter started coming apart. Once that happened it created a few low/rough places around the roller. One of those became large enough to cause the roller to stop rolling and start skidding or sliding. The failure didn't seem to be related to the oil at all -just the failure of the hard facing on the roller. Sounds like the S&S tappets are the only ones that seem reasonably reliable.

[HD Street Performance]

Not exactly, I think it was skidding first

[workingdan]

Workingdan,
I just had a stock lifter failure on my 2010 CVO Ultra yesterday (Sept. 29). It only has 25,000 miles on it. We were out for an easy ride with friends and the motor started making a bunch of racket! Took it right to the dealership and they tore it down. The hard facing on the roller of the front (exhaust) lifter started coming apart. The metal particles took out both camshafts and the oil pump. The crank *looks* OK, but it's hard to tell where all the metal might have gone...

Now I'm debating between a slight upgrade/rebuild, or maybe an SE120R. The rebuild would be less expensive, but the 120 might be more fun -and we tow a trailer a lot. The bike is our main source of recreation, so the BSR says to do whatever I want. Gotta love that girl!  It's easier to make these decisions when she lays down the law.  What to do, what to do??

[HD Street Performance]

These threads do not always work real well when another jumps in and says something like "my build..." or "maybe a 120r..."
Sorry for being part of that.

Your question is simple
The motor comes with INA skip bearing caged needle bearings. INA is a great company with super products but this bearing is "medium duty"
Problem is the CVO has springs and valvetrain weight that doesn't need anything "medium duty" The SE Timkin inner bearings are a much better choice as they are "heavy duty" and have a full compliment of needles for a higher load carrying capacity and longer mean time to failure., OK

[bikerboy53]

Sorry I jacked the thread. I thought there were some good answers about the bearings on the first page. And I thought there might be some interest to hear about lifter problems while the motor is apart, but I admit I got carried away with the 120R stuff. Sorry!

(And thanks to those who answered my 120 questions!)