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[lilcoot]

I have a '12 SESG with a TTS Mastertune that I had dynotuned a couple months ago.  Before the tune, I rode it several hundred miles on a canned map that hd_dude (Jim) provided, and it ran pretty well.  Since getting it dynotuned, gas mileage dropped to 31-32 mpg.    I've checked the tire pressures, which are good. 

It never did get good gas mileage;  averaged about 38 mpg when new, with 44 mpg being the best I ever got.  Got about 37-38 with the canned map.  I tend to be a little heavy handed. 

Has anyone else noticed a big change in mpgs after a dynotune?  I was hoping the gas mileage would get better, not worse.

I suspect the A:F ratio is a little lean, because I've noticed a little backfiring on decel, and the oil temps are running 10-20 degrees hotter than before (but not nearly as hot as it ran stock).

Thanks,

Dan

[murphy]

Mine got worse after tuning also.

[Cvostu]

well you are adding more gas,,,

[timo482]

look at the map - is it running closed loop most of the time? or open loop rich most of the time?

makes a gigantic difference in milage

of course my personal experience is that the throttle position makes the most difference in milage. if i cool my jets i get wayyyyy better milage than if im even sort of hot dogging.

to

[Dead_Reckoning]

I have a '12 SESG with a TTS Mastertune that I had dynotuned a couple months ago.  Before the tune, I rode it several hundred miles on a canned map that hd_dude (Jim) provided, and it ran pretty well.  Since getting it dynotuned, gas mileage dropped to 31-32 mpg.    I've checked the tire pressures, which are good. 

It never did get good gas mileage;  averaged about 38 mpg when new, with 44 mpg being the best I ever got.  Got about 37-38 with the canned map.  I tend to be a little heavy handed. 

Has anyone else noticed a big change in mpgs after a dynotune?  I was hoping the gas mileage would get better, not worse.

I suspect the A:F ratio is a little lean, because I've noticed a little backfiring on decel, and the oil temps are running 10-20 degrees hotter than before (but not nearly as hot as it ran stock).

Thanks,

Dan

I am thinking "You Tuned it for Performance" di you not? Were you looking for Fuel Economy?
My SERK got 40 to 44, depending on whom i rode with before Dyno Tune.
Now I am in the 35 - 40 Range, depending on whom I ride with. I do have a bigger smile though.

[Midnight Rider]

If I were guessing, I'd say your tuner set the bike up to run in open loop ALL the time.  A lot of "old school" turners are apt to do that...

[SDCVO]

I had the same issue. My tuner did a amazing job getting me 95HP and 121 TQ with just a SERT and Fatcatz with amazing throttle response and overall fantastic performance. I am thrilled with everything he did with 1 exception, my gas mileage sucks.. I am running between 30-35 mpg pretty much anyway I run. When I am by myself, I could care less. The difference on a couple of bucks in gas really means nothing to me for the performance I am getting with virtually no mods The problem I have id that I ride with my brother in law 90% of the time and he is getting 8 mpg better then me and it is a nuisance that we always have to "get gas" long before he has to.
Looking to talk my brother in law to get a S&S 124 with me so we will both "have it all"..

[hbens]

My mileage went down with the mods too. I generally get between 32-36 when I ride by myself. I love the acceleration and mileage is simply something to keep tabs on.
When I ride with my wife on and in a pack I am not leading I tend to get 38-40 mpg. My throttle hand has the biggest affect on fuel mileage. 

[GtreetSlide]

Mine got worse after tuning also.

Just did a tune on a 2011 trike (Lambda system) and the more I tuned the worse it got.... Turned out both the O2 sensors were in the wrong pipes... a better tune should mean richer, running cooler, and most cases better mpg and power....

[warwick]

a better tune should mean richer, .........., and most cases better mpg

Flies in the face of logic IMHO 

[North Star]

Mine got worse after tuning also.

...could be your tuner....

[cvobiker]

I was averaging 42-44 with my passed 131 putting out 130/132.  If I was you I'd go back to your prior tune.   Who did your dyno tune?   You must of instructed tuner for full out power. 

[grc]

Find a top notch fully trained professional tuner, not the kid at the local Harley shop who got the one day class from DynoJet on how to hook the bike up to the drum and run the machine.  A REAL tuner can give you good cruise economy AND good acceleration and wide open throttle peformance at the same time.  Never forget a basic truth; anyone with the cash or credit can buy a dyno, the dyno company doesn't require proof of competency before selling anyone their machine.  There are a whole lot more dynos out there than there are fully qualified tuners.  There are dyno operators, then there are tuners.  Anyone can be taught to hook a bike up and run the bike through the gears and produce a chart.  Not everyone can be easily taught combustion theory and proper tuning methods. 

Jerry

[sadunbar]

I have a '12 SESG with a TTS Mastertune that I had dynotuned a couple months ago.  Before the tune, I rode it several hundred miles on a canned map that hd_dude (Jim) provided, and it ran pretty well.  Since getting it dynotuned, gas mileage dropped to 31-32 mpg.    I've checked the tire pressures, which are good. 

It never did get good gas mileage;  averaged about 38 mpg when new, with 44 mpg being the best I ever got.  Got about 37-38 with the canned map.  I tend to be a little heavy handed. 

Has anyone else noticed a big change in mpgs after a dynotune?  I was hoping the gas mileage would get better, not worse.

I suspect the A:F ratio is a little lean, because I've noticed a little backfiring on decel, and the oil temps are running 10-20 degrees hotter than before (but not nearly as hot as it ran stock).

Thanks,

Dan

I see you're in So Cal.  If you can travel a bit north, one of the best tuners in the business is located in Hayward, Ca.  Bob Lobenburg at RC Cycles... 

[SBB]

I see you're in So Cal.  If you can travel a bit north, one of the best tuners in the business is located in Hayward, Ca.  Bob Lobenburg at RC Cycles... 

X 2


SBB

[GtreetSlide]

a better tune should mean richer, .........., and most cases better mpg

Flies in the face of logic IMHO 

Omly if you assume an HD map is created for power and mpg; which it is not. A more efficient tune means giving the engine what it needs to be the most efficient. HD maps are desiged to pass EPA; not to be efficient...

[Doc 1]

Someone please tell me what a EPA Map is, tell me what a EPA Cam is......I read this all the time on Harley Forums so some one please define EPA Cams and Maps.
Honestly I doubt anyone can......but....if you think you can you probably could tell me what a full race cam is or a 3/4 race cam....I'm all ears.....
Doc

[Midnight Rider]

Someone please tell me what a EPA Map is, tell me what a EPA Cam is......I read this all the time on Harley Forums so some one please define EPA Cams and Maps.
Honestly I doubt anyone can......but....if you think you can you probably could tell me what a full race cam is or a 3/4 race cam....I'm all ears.....
Doc

Doc...wow, those are terms we threw around back in my short block Chevy days, a LONG time ago.  I think, loosely, it meant a high lift, or more radical cam (race cam), and a 3/4 was just somewhere between stock and that.

I would assume an EPA cam and map, I think, is just another term for a combination that would pass an EPA sniff test.  Obviously, the current 110 engine must pass a sniff test with the stock map.  But even a bone stock bike can be improved with a TTS and tune, as I am certain you are aware.

But, I would assume it possible to pass an EPA test with another combination?  You'd be the expert on that...

[Doc 1]

Good try Midnight..... , You hit it on the head when you say TERMS used because there are no such things like a EPA Map or a EPA Cam. Actually the Harley maps are quite rich in open loop, I see 12.5:1 AFR in several maps and that is super rich. The cruise area, where there is no real load on the bike, is running richer than Stoitch....so.....thinking or saying these AFR's are EPA is not correct...they are AFR ratios only. Harley passes the EPA standards by choking off the air going into the motor and restricting it on the exhaust side so the air flow through the motor is held back.....less air, less emissions and this is how they pass the EPA Standards. Once we open the intake and exhaust we get much more air movement through the motor and we all become a EPA violation. After dialing in the fuel for the new mass of air we have the AFR's are very much the same as they where when the bike was stock, however more air requires more fuel even though the AFR's are the same.....actually I even take away from the 12.5 in open loop because it's really not necessary to run the bike that rich in the fuel table. 
I just wanted you all to know the EPA isn't looking at AFR's....they are looking at emissions. More air, more immissions no matter what the AFR is set at. So understanding that makes the TERM EPA Map pretty silly now doesn't it.......
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here, so please don't take it as that....I just think it's time to address this EPA Maps and Cams terms.
Doc

[GtreetSlide]

Good try Midnight..... , You hit it on the head when you say TERMS used because there are no such things like a EPA Map or a EPA Cam. Actually the Harley maps are quite rich in open loop, I see 12.5:1 AFR in several maps and that is super rich. The cruise area, where there is no real load on the bike, is running richer than Stoitch....so.....thinking or saying these AFR's are EPA is not correct...they are AFR ratios only. Harley passes the EPA standards by choking off the air going into the motor and restricting it on the exhaust side so the air flow through the motor is held back.....less air, less emissions and this is how they pass the EPA Standards. Once we open the intake and exhaust we get much more air movement through the motor and we all become a EPA violation. After dialing in the fuel for the new mass of air we have the AFR's are very much the same as they where when the bike was stock, however more air requires more fuel even though the AFR's are the same.....actually I even take away from the 12.5 in open loop because it's really not necessary to run the bike that rich in the fuel table. 
I just wanted you all to know the EPA isn't looking at AFR's....they are looking at emissions. More air, more immissions no matter what the AFR is set at. So understanding that makes the TERM EPA Map pretty silly now doesn't it.......
I'm not trying to step on anyones toes here, so please don't take it as that....I just think it's time to address this EPA Maps and Cams terms.
Doc

OK, a question then;

Why does the Harley Screamin Eagle catalogs list cams and engine modification package combinations as NOT EPA compliant and not legal for highway use, while others comply and are (1) warrenty approved and (2) street legal? example; the stage II 103 with open exhaust and intake and 255 cams?

It has certainly been a long time since I worked on automobiles, but way back then motors were manditory tested in Florida every year for EPA emmisions. Anything resulting in a slightly richer mixture resulted in too much emmisions... Back then the Japanese tackled the issue and got compliance very simply and effectively while American car makers added all kinds of gadgets to impact the exhaust gases...

Just curious...

[Doc 1]

Harley has to advertise like that to be able to sell their performance packages. The 255 cam that comes stock from the MoCo is in a bike that has restricted exhaust with the power at 82/102. As soon as you put on an exhaust system that is free flowing and match that air with fuel it will jump to 90/114 and now it's a EPA Violation. More air, more fuel, more emissions.

[timo482]

that is the whole enchilada...

the stock system maintains proper mixture to have proper emissions.

proper emissions is hot

folks dont like the heat

performance mods can be made that will retain emissions compliance - & that is all the "street legal" stuff

everything else is not street legal.

hence all the issues with warranty.

to

[dirkvr]

Concerning your popping on decel. I had the same problem. My stock rear header pipe was cracked just before the O2 sensor. I bought a true dual exhaust and my popping on decel is gone.

[Midnight Rider]

that is the whole enchilada...

the stock system maintains proper mixture to have proper emissions.

proper emissions is hot

folks dont like the heat

performance mods can be made that will retain emissions compliance - & that is all the "street legal" stuff

everything else is not street legal.

hence all the issues with warranty.

to

All that is true, grasshopper    But, replacing an exhaust and tuning a bike does not make hard parts in the engine fail, unless they are inferior products to begin with.  So, while not EPA compliant, if tested, and HD MOCO knows that 80+ % of people are going to change the exhaust and get a tune, is HD saying that it cannot build an engine other than one that is on the cutting edge of failure?

Ergo, there is no reason to deny warranty coverage for things that the exhaust and tuner had nothing to do with.  If you start messing around with Cams and stuff, that changes things a bit because you have opened/altered the components for the mechanical operation and changed them.  Different ballgame.

[ultraswede]

Ergo, there is no reason to deny warranty coverage for things that the exhaust and tuner had nothing to do with

Sorry to say, in my experience common sense has nothing to do with warranty handling at the MoCo.

Saving a buck on claims HAS!
(finding a reason/excuse to say no)

[Midnight Rider]

Sorry to say, in my experience common sense has nothing to do with warranty handling at the MoCo.

Saving a buck on claims HAS!
(finding a reason/excuse to say no)

I understand, and things are a bit different overseas than here.

[hdctss]

I have not tuned my new one, however my 2009 CVO Ultra mileage was still pretty good after Kuryakyn tuned it last year at Daytona. It was a lightly modified canned tune that they loaded there.  I would estimate that in normal riding I lost 2 MPG but when riding with a group I could still bring down 40.