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Author Topic: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?  (Read 7353 times)

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Stgeg

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I just got the new 2015 Street Glide CVO and thinking of adding some real sound , so I want to replace my stocks headers with the new fullsac dx pipe and V&H high output mufflers and may be adding the TTS master tune and fullsac map, my question is,  is it ok to change the sock headers without putting the TTS tuner as the bike have only 160 mile on it , and I have been advised not to put  the TTS before the 1st 1000 mile.

Any issues if I didn't add the TTS and just replaced the stock header with the DX header?
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2015, 02:42:38 PM »

DO NOT change the header and mufflers with putting a tune (TTS) in the bike at the same time. The engine will be excessively lean. Whoever advised you not to put the TTS on before 1K does not know what they are talking about. There is no danger in putting the tune in and making your bike run better!

Stgeg

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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2015, 08:05:42 PM »

DO NOT change the header and mufflers with putting a tune (TTS) in the bike at the same time. The engine will be excessively lean. Whoever advised you not to put the TTS on before 1K does not know what they are talking about. There is no danger in putting the tune in and making your bike run better!
Thank you HD-dude, I think you mean I should not change the header and mufflers WITHOUT putting a tune TTS to avoid running excessively lean , is this what you meant ?
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Stgeg

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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2015, 08:17:29 PM »

Thank you HD-dude, I think you mean I should not change the header and mufflers WITHOUT putting a tune TTS to avoid running excessively lean , is this what you meant ?
Sorry , I forgot to mention that I have no plans to change the air filter since the CVO bikes come with SE high air flow filter
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2015, 08:41:00 PM »

That is correct, the bike runs lean already because of EPA emissions. If you free up the exhaust that much it will be excessively lean and could do damage. I ran just the baffles for about 1000 miles but added the TTS as soon as I added the DX pipe. Now the bike sounds like a Harley and runs much cooler! You will be extremely happy with the results.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2015, 09:12:57 PM »

The bigger dealer in my area changes exhausts on bikes before selling them sometimes. But you MUST do the tune or at least a download whenever you put a better system on a bike, any bike.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2015, 09:31:40 PM »

You won't like the VH highoutputs............they kill the bottom end. I put a set on and couldn't get them off fast enough. You'd be better off to go with Fullsac CVO cores. Just a suggestion.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2015, 09:37:38 PM »

You won't like the VH highoutputs............they kill the bottom end. I put a set on and couldn't get them off fast enough. You'd be better off to go with Fullsac CVO cores. Just a suggestion.

I would agree. Too little restriction kills low-end torque. Fullsac CVO cores are the way to go with the Fullsac DX pipe.

Ken
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2015, 09:49:47 PM »

Last four new bikes in our house, two of mine and two of the wife's.  We ride the 56 miles home, on goes the Fullsac DX head pipe, the fullsac cores and the TTS tuner and map.  Do not do pipes and mufflers with out a TTS and map.

High out puts will hurt low end torque, even on a 110 inch motor.  Have see it proved on a dyne.  Fullsac 2.0 or 2.25 cores will make more torque.
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Stgeg

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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #9 on: January 14, 2015, 12:41:51 AM »

Thank you All for the valuable advice , I agree that High output will heart the low end torque , I heard very good feedback about the fullsac 2" and 2.25" core baffles but I like deep mellow sound so may be I will go for the CFR mufflers , I wonder if the CFR has the same issue as the V&H high output  ?
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2015, 05:57:21 AM »

Thank you All for the valuable advice , I agree that High output will heart the low end torque , I heard very good feedback about the fullsac 2" and 2.25" core baffles but I like deep mellow sound so may be I will go for the CFR mufflers , I wonder if the CFR has the same issue as the V&H high output  ?

Yes it will, why you don't go with fullsac SD cores they sounds deep, I have tested the CFR & V&H earlier and ended up with fullsac 

Sarhan
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #11 on: January 14, 2015, 06:33:12 AM »

Thank you All for the valuable advice , I agree that High output will heart the low end torque , I heard very good feedback about the fullsac 2" and 2.25" core baffles but I like deep mellow sound so may be I will go for the CFR mufflers , I wonder if the CFR has the same issue as the V&H high output  ?
I've never heard a bad word about the Fullsac cores' performance or sound. I run the Dragos Dragula 2.  DEEP! Lot's of bass at idle, then adds a little muscle car to the mix when you get on it. I picked up tons of torque and HP just from the pipe and tune. Here's the dyno sheet.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #12 on: January 14, 2015, 06:34:01 AM »

...and a pic.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #13 on: January 14, 2015, 07:47:38 AM »

Another option that won't hurt low end torque is the DX pipe with Kuryakyn Crusher Mellow mufflers. Deep tone, not too loud.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #14 on: January 14, 2015, 10:12:24 AM »

That is correct, the bike runs lean already because of EPA emissions. If you free up the exhaust that much it will be excessively lean and could do damage. I ran just the baffles for about 1000 miles but added the TTS as soon as I added the DX pipe. Now the bike sounds like a Harley and runs much cooler! You will be extremely happy with the results.

Can someone explain why operating these engines lean will cause damage.  The leaner you go from peak temp the cooler the exhaust get. :nixweiss:  I understand that the power output is reduced in lean operation.  From my pilot days...we would operate lean of peak all the time.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #15 on: January 14, 2015, 11:18:45 AM »

Can someone explain why operating these engines lean will cause damage.  The leaner you go from peak temp the cooler the exhaust get. :nixweiss:  I understand that the power output is reduced in lean operation.  From my pilot days...we would operate lean of peak all the time.
It has always been my understanding that TOO lean causes pre-ignition and detonation which can quickly cause damage.  In the extreme a hole in the top of the piston and/or hammering the valve train and/or lower end to the point of failure.  The most technically knowledgeable members can add to (or correct) my understanding.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #16 on: January 14, 2015, 11:26:53 AM »

It has always been my understanding that TOO lean causes pre-ignition and detonation which can quickly cause damage.  In the extreme a hole in the top of the piston and/or hammering the valve train and/or lower end to the point of failure.  The most technically knowledgeable members can add to (or correct) my understanding.
Also makes the motor run hotter.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #17 on: January 14, 2015, 12:45:02 PM »

Can someone explain why operating these engines lean will cause damage. 
...
From my pilot days...we would operate lean of peak all the time.

It has always been my understanding that TOO lean causes pre-ignition and detonation which can quickly cause damage.  In the extreme a hole in the top of the piston and/or hammering the valve train and/or lower end to the point of failure.  The most technically knowledgeable members can add to (or correct) my understanding.

OK, here goes...

Pretty much, yeah. The EPA wants engines tuned to burn the fuel most efficiently, to reduce the amount of pollutants and unburned fuel coming out of the tailpipe. To achieve this, the MoCo has to calibrate the ECM to run very lean mixtures that have a high air-to-fuel ratio, and the intake and exhaust are relatively restrictive to keep everything in check. Everything about a stock air-cooled Harley is to please the EPA... not to make max power. While this achieves cleaner exhaust (also helped by the additional burning of gases in the exhaust by the VERY HOT catalytic converter by your and your BSR's right feet), it generates a LOT of heat.

And if the AFR is too lean because you've opened up your intake and exhaust, it can lead to:

1. Pre-ignition - which is ignition of the fuel charge before the spark plug ignites it at the proper time. This is often caused by carbon buildup on the piston or in the combustion chamber components. Any little piece of hot carbon can provide a nucleation site for the atomized droplets of fuel to cling to and begin burning too soon... before the spark plug ignites the charge properly.

2. Detonation (a.k.a. knocking or pinging) - which is a very fast and often very destructive explosion of the fuel charge, instead of a normal burning of the charge with a predictable flame front across the combustion area. This is VERY bad. If the fuel charge ignites and explodes rapidly, instead of igniting and burning normally across the combustion area over the designed period of time, it can damage or even destroy the engine. If the charge explodes in the cylinder while the piston is still coming up and compressing the charge, and before the crank has turned enough to allow the piston to come back down, the burning and rapidly-expanding charge can blow a hole in the piston or in the cylinder head. Those expanding gases have to go somewhere, and going through the top of the piston is typically the point of least resistance.

When any substance is compressed, it heats up. If the AFR is too lean, or if the octane in the fuel is too low, or if the timing is too far advanced, the highly compressed air-fuel mixture in the cylinder can spontaneously combust before the spark plug ignites it at the proper time, and/or it can explode rapidly instead of burning evenly through the combustion chamber at the designed speed. That's why engines with high compression need a higher octane fuel, a richer AFR, and likely later (retarded) ignition timing... to prevent the fuel charge from igniting before it's supposed to, and to help ensure that the charge burns normally across the combustion chamber instead of just exploding all at once and blasting the engine apart.

There are many articles out on the net that explain all of this in great detail... but that's the nuts and bolts of it.

Detonation is more destructive, and if you hear your engine knocking, it won't be long before it is damaged - perhaps severely. Properly-tuned engines, running the proper fuel, with proper ignition timing, do not knock. Your engine can be knocking before you can even hear it, so an essential part of a proper tune is ensuring that no knocking is occurring after the VE tables, EGR, etc. have been calibrated. The Delphi ECM has ion-sensing knock detection and automatic timing retard, to help prevent engine damage... but a good tune should have the ignition timing set to a couple of degrees before knocking occurs. When the ECM senses knock, it will pull several degrees out of the ignition timing, and then slowly add it back in until it senses knock again. This is extra work for the ECM to do, and it's not desirable. It's better to have the ignition timing set a couple of degrees before knock occurs in the various cells of the timing tables. This also helps compensate for when you occasionally fill up with "bad gas" that doesn't have the octane that it's advertised to have.

Engines are air pumps. When you remove restriction from the intake or exhaust, you are in effect allowing the air pump to pump more air through the engine. This will produce more heat with a too-lean mixture, as well as not producing the maximum amount of TQ/HP of which the engine is capable. The ECM needs to be re-calibrated to provide more fuel in the mixture to compensate for the increased amount of air flowing through the engine. Changing cams, which also changes the airflow through the engine, requires the ECM to be re-calibrated as well... to ensure that the proper AFR is maintained at all RPM and manifold pressures (kPa for lambda cals or throttle position for non-lambda cals)

Cat Eye - regarding your flying experience... I am a private pilot as well. Aircraft engines operate in a very different environment than do surface vehicles. With altitude, the air gets progressively less dense than it is at sea level. Less air density means that less fuel is needed to maintain the optimum AFR for complete combustion and maximum power production. So, you have to lean out the AFR to what it needs to be at altitude, to avoid essentially flooding the engine with a too-rich mixture that would reduce the power produced.

Ken

« Last Edit: January 14, 2015, 02:07:15 PM by North Georgia Hawg »
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #18 on: January 14, 2015, 01:51:33 PM »

OK, here goes...

Pretty much, yeah. The EPA wants engines tuned to burn the fuel most efficiently, to reduce the amount of pollutants and unburned fuel coming out of the tailpipe. To achieve this, the MoCo has to calibrate the ECM to run very lean mixtures that have a high air-to-fuel ratio, and the intake and exhaust are relatively restrictive to keep everything in check. Everything about a stock air-cooled Harley is to,please the EPA... not to make max power. While this achieves cleaner exhaust (also helped by the additional burning of gases in the exhaust by the VERY HOT catalytic converter by your and your BSR's right feet), it generates a LOT of heat.

And if the AFR is too lean because you've opened up your intake and exhaust, it can lead to:

1. Pre-ignition - which is ignition of the fuel charge before the spark plug ignites it at the proper time. This is often caused by carbon buildup on the piston or in the combustion chamber components. Any little piece of hot carbon can provide a nucleation site for the atomized droplets of fuel to cling to and begin burning too soon... before the spark plug ignites the charge properly.

2. Detonation (a.k.a. knocking or pinging) - which is a very fast and often very destructive explosion of the fuel charge, instead of a normal burning of the charge with a predictable flame front across the combustion area. This is VERY bad. If the fuel charge ignites and explodes rapidly, instead of igniting and burning normally across the combustion area over the designed period of time, it can damage or even destroy the engine. If the charge explodes in the cylinder while the piston is still coming up and compressing the charge, and before the crank has turned enough to allow the piston to come back down, the burning and rapidly-expanding charge can blow a hole in the piston or in the cylinder head. Those expanding gases have to go somewhere, and going through the top of the piston is typically the point of least resistance.

When any substance is compressed, it heats up. If the AFR is too lean, or if the octane in the fuel is too low, or if the timing is too far advanced, the highly compressed air-fuel mixture in the cylinder can spontaneously combust before the spark plug ignites it at the proper time, and/or it can explode rapidly instead of burning evenly through the combustion chamber at the designed speed. That's why engines with high compression need a higher octane fuel, a richer AFR, and likely later (retarded) ignition timing... to prevent the fuel charge from igniting before it's supposed to, and to help ensure that the charge burns normally across the combustion chamber instead of just exploding all at once and blasting the engine apart.

There are many articles out on the net that explain all of this in great detail... but that's the nuts and bolts of it.

Detonation is more destructive, and if you hear your engine knocking, it won't be long before it is damaged - perhaps severely. Properly-tuned engines, running the proper fuel, with proper ignition timing, do not knock. Your engine can be knocking before you can even hear it, so an essential part of a proper tune is ensuring that no knocking is occurring after the VE tables, EGR, etc. have been calibrated. The Delphi ECM has ion-sensing knock detection and automatic timing retard, to help prevent engine damage... but a good tune should have the ignition timing set to a couple of degrees before knocking occurs. When the ECM senses knock, it will pull several degrees out of the ignition timing, and then slowly add it back in until it senses knock again. This is extra work for the ECM to do, and it's not desirable. It's better to have the ignition timing set a couple of degrees before knock occurs in the various cells of the timing tables. This also helps compensate for when you occasionally fill up with "bad gas" that doesn't have the octane that it's advertised to have.

Engines are air pumps. When you remove restriction from the intake or exhaust, you are in effect allowing the air pump to pump more air through the engine. This will produce more heat with a too-lean mixture, as well as not producing the maximum amount of TQ/HP of which the engine is capable. The ECM needs to be re-calibrated to provide more fuel in the mixture to compensate for the increased amount of air flowing through the engine. Changing cams, which also changes the airflow through the engine, requires the ECM to be re-calibrated as well... to ensure that the proper AFT is maintained at all RPM and manifold pressures (kPa for lambda cals or throttle opening for non-lambda cals)

Cat Eye - regarding your flying experience... I am a private pilot as well. Aircraft engines operate in a very different environment than do surface vehicles. With altitude, the air gets progressively less dense than it is at sea level. Less air density means that less fuel is needed to maintain the optimum AFR for complete combustion and maximum power production. So, you have to lean out the AFR to what it needs to be at altitude, to avoid essentially flooding the engine with a too-rich mixture that would reduce the power produced.

Ken
Thank you Ken for your very informative quote
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #19 on: January 14, 2015, 03:39:09 PM »

they ARE lean to start with - just like all modern engines they run right on the edge of tooo lean right out of the gate.

but since they are air cooled and they sit still at stop lights - well making them more lean can be a problem

to
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #20 on: January 14, 2015, 03:48:17 PM »

Thanks Ken, this all makes sense.

I have been trying to find what the effect of fuel-air ratio has to the octane rating.
If leaning out the fuel mixture reduces the compression properties(detonation threshold)...then would it be safe to say that enriching the mixture would increase the compression properties also?

My assumption is that octane rating are based on a stoichiometric mixture or a lambda of 1.

If this is true...then decrease the lambda in the VE table for those condition where knocking occurs might also help stop the detonation?



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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #21 on: January 14, 2015, 07:09:13 PM »

Good stuff Ken  :2vrolijk_21:
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #22 on: January 14, 2015, 07:17:30 PM »

I think MikeyT and Hogasm can attest to what too lean did to Mikeys motor. Hole in piston desease.
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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #23 on: January 14, 2015, 09:32:12 PM »

Another option that won't hurt low end torque is the DX pipe with Kuryakyn Crusher Mellow mufflers. Deep tone, not too loud.

I will agree it sounds great.  Much better choice than the High Outputs.  CFR are even worse for toque than the High outputs. 

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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #24 on: January 14, 2015, 09:34:07 PM »

Can someone explain why operating these engines lean will cause damage.  The leaner you go from peak temp the cooler the exhaust get. :nixweiss:  I understand that the power output is reduced in lean operation.  From my pilot days...we would operate lean of peak all the time.

The leaner you go the hotter the temperature of the exhaust, and cylinder.  Lean destroys engines.  Not sure about in the air, but it sure does on the ground.
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North Georgia Hawg

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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #25 on: January 14, 2015, 11:57:41 PM »

Thanks Ken, this all makes sense.

I have been trying to find what the effect of fuel-air ratio has to the octane rating.
If leaning out the fuel mixture reduces the compression properties(detonation threshold)...then would it be safe to say that enriching the mixture would increase the compression properties also?

My assumption is that octane rating are based on a stoichiometric mixture or a lambda of 1.

If this is true...then decrease the lambda in the VE table for those condition where knocking occurs might also help stop the detonation?

It's much more complex than just richening up the mixture in modern EFI systems. There are many things in play, and the AFR is changed dynamically by the ECM using data supplied by the various sensors. It's far more complex than carburetors were!

The octane rating of the fuel has nothing to do with the AFR. They are two separate things - but there is interplay between them. Higher octane fuel has higher resistance to detonation at a specific AFR and compression ratio.

Octane ratings worldwide are based on something called the Research Octane Number (RON), which is a standardized test to determine a fuel's resistance to detonation compared to a standard "pure" fuel. In the U.S. and Canada, and in some other countries, the Motor Octane Number (MON), which is the result of yet another type of test, is used as well. The posted octane number on fuel pumps in North America is the RON and the MON averaged together, which is why our pumps have little labels that say "(R+M)/2" on them. It's simply a number that represents the fuel's resistance to detonation in these controlled lab tests.

At a specific AFR, a 91 octane fuel will be susceptible to detonation at a lower compression ratio than will a 93 octane fuel. You can compress the 93 octane fuel more than you can compress a 91 octane fuel before detonation becomes a factor. Likewise, at a specific compression ratio, a 91 octane fuel will be susceptible to detonation at a lower AFR than will a higher octane fuel. All other factors being equal, you can run 93 octane fuel at a higher AFR (leaner) than you can run 91 octane fuel, because 93 octane fuel has higher resistance to detonation.

That's why we need to run 93 octane in our big hot air-cooled Harley engines, and why running very high CRs (above around 10.5:1) makes Harley engines much more susceptible to detonation because they get much nearer to the fuel's detonation point. Running CRs that high may require the engine to simply need a higher octane level in the fuel than is available in standard pump gas, to avoid detonation. Richening up the AFR may help reduce detonation in this situation. Retarding timing at these high compression ratios *may* also help reduce detonation, but can also reduce performance, and is pretty tricky to balance in real-world riding. Adding octane boosters is sometimes necessary to avoid detonation in engines with very high CRs that are more appropriate for the drag strip than they are for the street.

Lambda values are not set in the VE tables. They are set in the Main Lambda table. The VE table values are set automatically by the tuning software by doing tuning runs and applying the recorded values to them, and generally these auto-set values should not be changed manually after the tuning runs. Generally, you want the values in the main riding ranges of the Main Lambda table to remain set to closed loop values after tuning - to enable the ECM to manage the AFR for those RPM/lambda ranges using data dynamically collected from the O2 sensors in the exhaust headers. An easy way to do this is to simply reset the Main Lambda table to the base cal values after tuning.

Lambda values in the open loop areas are sometimes then tweaked by the tuner, but it's a pretty tedious process... as is tweaking the degrees advancement in the timing tables. But that's what you pay a pro tuner with a dyno to do... provide you with excellent performance with no knocking!

Ken
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cembo

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Re: Is it ok to change the stock headers before the 1st 1000 mile?
« Reply #26 on: January 21, 2015, 08:55:13 PM »

I will agree it sounds great.  Much better choice than the High Outputs.  CFR are even worse for toque than the High outputs.

While everyone has to find their own header / muffler combination, I have just recently installed true dual headers with CFR pipes and had the bike tuned by Dave S. @ Pocono HD with TTS. No need to comment on the sound - everybody will agree that CFR's have a very distinct deep rumble to them. Dave was very impressed with the torque curve and said it was vastly improved over earlier bikes with CFR pipes he had tuned. No low-end dip (over 100ftlb well before 2500rpm) and 112ftlb max (SAE) / 116ftlb max (STD). Can't wait for spring to come!
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