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[Steve_G]

-Just got my Sept. '08 Motorcyclist mag in the mail today.  Victory Vision Tour vs. Gold Wing Vs. HD Ultra Classic vs. Triumph Rocket III.  Gold Wing won (no suprise here).  But the biggest shock was on the dyno testing.  Gold Wing 108.8 bhp and 109 lb ft tq.  -Nice!  the 96" Ultra 58.1 bhp/70.9 tq.  The Wing is almost DOUBLE the HD.  Way more than 50% more tq.  Of course the HD had by far the least power of anything in the test.  Maybe the Mo Co could coax a few more ponies out of our old pushrod engines.

[110tHunDer]

 
Interesting.  So, did they rank them 1 - 4?  I don't really think of the Rocket III as a touring bike.

[naitram]

they have a new model



but this looks like more fun

[Steve_G]

Interesting.  So, did they rank them 1 - 4?  I don't really think of the Rocket III as a touring bike.

1st place -Honda
2nd place- Victory Vision
3rd place- Triumph
4th place- HD
Note: 3rd and 4th weren't always specified, it was based on the "off the record" reports of the people test riding them.  One guy said of the HD that "the motor is underpowered for a bike in this category and it's not the best handler".
The article said of the Victory Vision Tour: "hands-down, and for every tester but tiny ones, this is the most comfortable touring bike around".
The article also said the Victory kept up with the Wing in the twisties.
Another quote: "To be brutally honest, we were each counting the miles until it was our turn to ride the Honda again".

I'm 6'4", and tried a new Wing a couple of years ago.  I can relate to another quote in the article:  "Anyone taller than Danny DeVito will feel hemmed in by the lower body ergonomics and fantasize about crash-bar mounted pegs, even if they'd have you doing a split".  That is exactly what I don't like about the Wing.  I'm far more comfortable on the Harley.  The ONLY problem with the HD E glides is the rain that is focused on your knees when it gets wet out.  I would guess that a Road Glide with lowers wouldn't have this problem.

[NWbiker]

I have read this thread with interest and the article.  I think some of those testers are strange to say it best.  All I can say is this.  In 2002 I purchased a brand new 1800 Goldwing.  I'm 6 foot and within a year I sold it.  I was never more uncomfortable on a bike in my life.  I could only go approx. 200 miles and I was done.  The seat was uncomfortable, I could not stretch out my legs (cramped up like on a sport touring bike) and my back even with the back rest would hurt, hips would hurt and it was just simply miserable.  I had a 99 Road king (stock seat) at the time also and was never uncomfortable on it.  We traded the Roadking in on a new 03 anniversary Ultra and quit riding the Honda.  Sold the Wing to a 5'5" one legged guy who converted it into a Trike, he's happy and I'm happy for him.  The ultra to me is far more comfortable, better center of gravity, better at slow maneuvers and I don't worry if my legs get wet (that's what rain pants or chaps are for).  We now have the 07 B/O SEUC and we both love the bike.  No more Goldwings for us.
They should let riders who have real experience on both write these reports.

[cowboy7123]

They should have used a CVO for the test with a 110 ( 1802 cc ) , The GW has a 1800CC eng. So its like night and day when you use a stock 96.

[Steve_G]

I've read a couple of dyno results on a stock CVO 110".  I remember the tq was 96 lb ft.  I believe the hp was around 86.  (I think).  That still puts the Wing way ahead on power. 
I know most people put a "stage 1" tune on their bikes, and they've reported the dyno results elswhere on this site.
With different pipes or mufflers, open A/C and tune, they are getting close to the Wing's stock numbers on tq, but most are still short on the horsies. 
The only way to get better numbers is with the addition of cams and head work.  -Hey, our beloved V-twins are an antique design.  For me, I'm very happy with the power my totally stock bike has.  I love everything about it, other than the leakage issues (I haven't had mine leak yet, and I'll get the enhancement program done).  -Besides, everything I own says HD on it.  I sure as hell can't afford to start over now.  I just think the Mo Co should refine their product and do recalls when their loyal customers all have the same problems.  Also it's discouraging when the updates are so dramatic and frequent that my '08 is already an old design.  It destroys the residual values of the bikes.  It makes getting parts a nightmare, and it's though for the aftermarket to develop products that need to be changed every year. 
I plan on keeping my current bike for the long term.  I'm done chasing the ever changing landscape that HD has become.  I just wish they would test their products before coming out with something totally new.  I don't live next door to a dealer, and don't like the idea of having a new engine torn apart for "enhancements" that I shouldn't need.

[grc]

They should have used a CVO for the test with a 110 ( 1802 cc ) , The GW has a 1800CC eng. So its like night and day when you use a stock 96.

Wouldn't make any difference, the Wing and the Rocket would still smoke the Harley and outhandle it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Victory did the same.  The only way Harley can compete is if the other guys are required to run stock while the Harley guy spends thousands on mods.  Good thing they didn't include a 152hp 1200cc BMW in that test, it could have gotten pretty embarrassing.

I've always gotten a bit of a chuckle when folks finally realize that their overpriced antique design can't compete with the lower priced offerings from anyone else.  If you want fast in a straight line, the only reason to stop at a Harley shop is to see if they have a leftover Destroyer sitting around.  A decent second choice would be a V-Rod with the mid controls (versus the wind-up-your-pantleg riding position of the standard version).  Everything else hasn't been competitive since the original Japanese invasion in the 60's.  There are many valid reasons for someone to buy a Harley over one of the other brands, but performance is not one of them.

Funny thing about performance, be it acceleration, braking, or handling performance, light beats overweight every time.  If Harley could put their bikes on a diet and drop 100-200 lbs., you wouldn't need to spend thousands on engine mods to keep up.  IMHO, a nearly 1000 pound motorcycle is a bad joke.  Maybe it's time for aluminum frames and modern materials and design.  Or just fill the steel frames and tires and other hollow components with helium for the costcutter special version.  

Jerry

[iski]

Wouldn't make any difference, the Wing and the Rocket would still smoke the Harley and outhandle it, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Victory did the same.  The only way Harley can compete is if the other guys are required to run stock while the Harley guy spends thousands on mods.  Good thing they didn't include a 152hp 1200cc BMW in that test, it could have gotten pretty embarrassing.

I've always gotten a bit of a chuckle when folks finally realize that their overpriced antique design can't compete with the lower priced offerings from anyone else.  If you want fast in a straight line, the only reason to stop at a Harley shop is to see if they have a leftover Destroyer sitting around.  A decent second choice would be a V-Rod with the mid controls (versus the wind-up-your-pantleg riding position of the standard version).  Everything else hasn't been competitive since the original Japanese invasion in the 60's.  There are many valid reasons for someone to buy a Harley over one of the other brands, but performance is not one of them.

Funny thing about performance, be it acceleration, braking, or handling performance, light beats overweight every time.  If Harley could put their bikes on a diet and drop 100-200 lbs., you wouldn't need to spend thousands on engine mods to keep up.  IMHO, a nearly 1000 pound motorcycle is a bad joke.  Maybe it's time for aluminum frames and modern materials and design.  Or just fill the steel frames and tires and other hollow components with helium for the costcutter special version. 

Jerry

I did not buy my Harleys for speed - more for comfort.  Know some folks who are surprised when smaller cc bikes rocket past them, but since I used to ride those 'lil rockets, does not surprise me.  Same deal on braking and you are right on the money Jerry - it's also about weight.  Harleys are the land yachts of the world of 2 wheels.  And that's where the comfort comes into play for some of us.  For overall handling, speed, etc. best I have seen is that 1200 GS Beemer.  But it's not for me - like my Harleys just fine.  Next bike - a few years away maybe - more likely will be a Harley.

If they see your helium frame idea, they will patent it.   

Noticed years ago the All Harley Drags, races, etc.   Long time back, Harley competed with the rest of the biker world.  Then they decided to make their own racing class.  Guess Suzuki, Honda, Yamaha, BMW, etc. could do the same.......   

 Mike
 

[Dirkenstien]

Yet all of those other companies would still give anything to have what Harley has.

[charlie]

They seem to always put harley last but they seem to always out seel the rest.

[grc]

They seem to always put harley last but they seem to always out sell the rest.

True, but then again the same was true of GM and Ford for a lot of years before the bottom fell out.  By the end of this year you will see Toyota surpass both of those American icons in worldwide sales.  Lots of folks would have never believed that, including the head-in-the-sand upper management of those companies.

American automotive consumers used to be similar to Harley consumers, preferring the big inefficient Detroit iron to the smaller, higher quality, more efficient offerings from Japan.  I think that anyone who doesn't see the possibility of the same thing happening to Harley that has happened to Chrysler/Ford/GM is wearing blinders.  One of the reasons I keep making these unpopular posts about Harley and it's management is that I'm still a little like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills in the hope that I can somehow make a difference.  My bosses didn't listen all those years at Ford, but that didn't stop me from continuing to speak my piece.  Harley also doesn't appear to be listening, but I'm not giving up on them either.  Now where's that damned windmill?

Jerry

[sadunbar]

True, but then again the same was true of GM and Ford for a lot of years before the bottom fell out.  By the end of this year you will see Toyota surpass both of those American icons in worldwide sales.  Lots of folks would have never believed that, including the head-in-the-sand upper management of those companies.

American automotive consumers used to be similar to Harley consumers, preferring the big inefficient Detroit iron to the smaller, higher quality, more efficient offerings from Japan.  I think that anyone who doesn't see the possibility of the same thing happening to Harley that has happened to Chrysler/Ford/GM is wearing blinders.  One of the reasons I keep making these unpopular posts about Harley and it's management is that I'm still a little like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills in the hope that I can somehow make a difference.  My bosses didn't listen all those years at Ford, but that didn't stop me from continuing to speak my piece.  Harley also doesn't appear to be listening, but I'm not giving up on them either.  Now where's that damned windmill?

Jerry

Jerry,

Have you read "The Decline and Fall of the American Automotive Industry" by Brock Yates?

Scott

http://www.amazon.com/Decline-Fall-American-Automobile-Industry/dp/0394722523/ref=sr_1_7/002-6271290-2129610?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1217634664&sr=1-7

[kojak]

True, but then again the same was true of GM and Ford for a lot of years before the bottom fell out.  By the end of this year you will see Toyota surpass both of those American icons in worldwide sales.  Lots of folks would have never believed that, including the head-in-the-sand upper management of those companies.

American automotive consumers used to be similar to Harley consumers, preferring the big inefficient Detroit iron to the smaller, higher quality, more efficient offerings from Japan.  I think that anyone who doesn't see the possibility of the same thing happening to Harley that has happened to Chrysler/Ford/GM is wearing blinders.  One of the reasons I keep making these unpopular posts about Harley and it's management is that I'm still a little like Don Quixote, tilting at windmills in the hope that I can somehow make a difference.  My bosses didn't listen all those years at Ford, but that didn't stop me from continuing to speak my piece.  Harley also doesn't appear to be listening, but I'm not giving up on them either.  Now where's that damned windmill?

Jerry

Last time I checked Jerry, Harley had a 60% share of the US Market, Honda 20%, and the rest split the remaining 20%. By the way, I owned the best sport touring bike made in the last 10 years, a 2005 FJR 1300 and also a 2005 Rocket 3. There was nothing that my glide could do better than the Yamaha but the Harley stayed and the others got sold. Dont understand it myself but I love my Harley's.

[grc]

Last time I checked Jerry, Harley had a 60% share of the US Market, Honda 20%, and the rest split the remaining 20%. By the way, I owned the best sport touring bike made in the last 10 years, a 2005 FJR 1300 and also a 2005 Rocket 3. There was nothing that my glide could do better than the Yamaha but the Harley stayed and the others got sold. Dont understand it myself but I love my Harley's.

That was part of the point of my post about the auto industry.  GM used to control 60% of the market, and the big three combined controlled over 90% as recently as the 1970's.  And many people continued to buy their favorite brand for many years after it became obvious that the Japanese competition had surpassed the American companies in quality and value.  I would suggest that H-D needs to study the history of the auto industry and take action to avoid the same fate as GM/Ford/Chrysler.  Assuming that there are no breakthrough miracles that allow us to maintain our mental and physical abilities well beyond our 100th birthdays, the MoCo will be looking at a whole different customer base in the next decade or two.  And it will be made up of people who aren't used to dealing with poor quality or poor performance.

JMHO - Jerry