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[Chief]

I don't agree.  Look at my situation, for example; let's assume I could get a decent dyno tune done, which I can't, but let's assume I can.  I live at 56 degrees north, it's cold, and it never gets much above sea level, in relative terms.   When I take a vacation on my bike, I head into mainland Europe. I can get as far south as to be within sight of Africa, I can cross mountain ranges like the Alps, or the Pyrenees, or the Sierra Nevada.  I do that sort of thing every year, doing more miles - in varied conditions - that I do at home. My bike, nicely tuned at home, in the home environment, spends most of its time out of tune!  A device like this that can autotune AND use the knock sensor, is a gift from heaven for me - IF it works....

Jim

In your situation, I can see auto tuning capabilities as almost mandatory.

[Eqcons]

In your situation, I can see auto tuning capabilities as almost mandatory.

Zackly!     And I guess there are plenty guys in the US where the same applies!

Jim

[grc]

One thing you're forgetting is that the stock ECM already makes adjustments for altitude (barometric pressure), temperature, etc.  Yes, the result is dependent on the correction factors programmed into the system, but when programmed properly it's more than adequate for 98% of us.  The additional precision obtained with wide band closed loop feedback is nice, and if money is no object it's something we all should have.  However, when you consider where we all were just a few years back with our carb bikes, even just a SERT or PC with a canned map is a big improvement.  My point with my earlier post was that I believe some folks are trying to create this huge "need" where one doesn't really exist, at least for the majority of us, just to make a few more bucks.  If your personal situation justifies the expense, go for it.  Just remember the experiences of many with the T-Max Auto-Tune; you still need a very good base map for it to work correctly, and it doesn't do anything with ignition timing.  This new system has those same limitations from what I read, other than the fact that the ion-sense knock sensing will still work.

Jerry

[Fired00d]

One thing you're forgetting is that the stock ECM already makes adjustments for altitude (barometric pressure), temperature, etc.  Yes, the result is dependent on the correction factors programmed into the system, but when programmed properly it's more than adequate for 98% of us.  The additional precision obtained with wide band closed loop feedback is nice, and if money is no object it's something we all should have.  However, when you consider where we all were just a few years back with our carb bikes, even just a SERT or PC with a canned map is a big improvement.  My point with my earlier post was that I believe some folks are trying to create this huge "need" where one doesn't really exist, at least for the majority of us, just to make a few more bucks.  If your personal situation justifies the expense, go for it.  Just remember the experiences of many with the T-Max Auto-Tune; you still need a very good base map for it to work correctly, and it doesn't do anything with ignition timing.  This new system has those same limitations from what I read, other than the fact that the ion-sense knock sensing will still work.

Jerry

Thanks Jerry I thought that there was some element of compensating different conditions that EFI provided on it's own. I knew it was some advantages provided by EFI over carb but couldn't have explained it like you did.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[Eqcons]

One thing you're forgetting is that the stock ECM already makes adjustments for altitude (barometric pressure), temperature, etc.

No, not forgetting that.  Been dealing with EFI (building engines, etc) for many years.

 Yes, the result is dependent on the correction factors programmed into the system, but when programmed properly it's more than adequate for 98% of us.  

Agreed - but, as in my other posts, the other 2% (and I think more!) don't have a dyno in easy reach, and even if they do, the tuner may be Krap, like mine was.

The additional precision obtained with wide band closed loop feedback is nice, and if money is no object it's something we all should have.  

Properly tuned, wideband is unnecessary (almost all cars run narrowband sensors) - it's the getting properly tuned in the first place that's the problem!

However, when you consider where we all were just a few years back with our carb bikes, even just a SERT or PC with a canned map is a big improvement.

Agreed. Just as the first car was an improvement over a horse and cart.  But it's easy to go better than that. so why not?  Technology moves on and makes these things easier, so why not use that technology?


 My point with my earlier post was that I believe some folks are trying to create this huge "need" where one doesn't really exist, at least for the majority of us, just to make a few more bucks.  If your personal situation justifies the expense, go for it. 

Yes, I'll go along with all of that; but there's more. Confidence. Confidence that at all times your bike is as good as it should be. Now THAT is lacking.  I don't even mean producing that last bit of HP or torque, just adapting properly to the ambient conditions, and running well, & most of all, reliably.  Particularly with the 110, let me tell you, that is one BIG concern!  If spending $450 or so improves that - and lets face it, $450 buys next to nothing for our bikes - then it's money well spent.

Just remember the experiences of many with the T-Max Auto-Tune; you still need a very good base map for it to work correctly,

Like MY experience you mean?

and it doesn't do anything with ignition timing.  This new system has those same limitations from what I read, other than the fact that the ion-sense knock sensing will still work.

<Jim gets déja vu> isn't this what I said at the start of the thread, Jerry?  Due to my experience with the TMAT, the big limitation of which is that it does not use the Ion-sensor, I'd find anything that DID use it the answer to my prayers, following my experience in Spain last year?

Jim

[Hoist!]

You guys continue this discussion. I've nothing much to add from the show. Yep, there are many tuning devices out there. From wide band full auto tune systems, to narrow band systems, to manually dyno tuneable systems. There are an awful lot of em out there now. I agree with Jerry that a Dyno Tune will yield excellent results if tuned properly. The AT systems are still at the mercy of the base maps they use. They all claim they will eventually self adjust. I don't think these systems are "there" yet. Brad Yuill likes the SERT with narrow band sensors, tuned just so they operate at 2000-3500 RPM, at up to half throttle. Way too many ideas out there right now. When the right AT comes along, believe me, we'll all know about it. Right now, I'm still not sold on it.

I've had a PC from day one. I'm adding a SERT to it now, to gain access to the ECM programming to change some parameters not accessible with the PC. No O2 sensors. Then final tune with the PC. Should be able to get the best manual tune available that way, with a qualified tuner. And I got one of them too! If they add narrow band O2 sensing to the PC, I might look into adding that as well. Brad's theory of having an economical AT range under normal light cruising loads makes good sense. But I'll have to think hard about that, since I'm very rarely cruising in the "normal light cruising areas"!

Hoist!

[Eqcons]

You guys continue this discussion. I've nothing much to add from the show. Yep, there are many tuning devices out there. From wide band full auto tune systems, to narrow band systems, to manually dyno tuneable systems. There are an awful lot of em out there now. I agree with Jerry that a Dyno Tune will yield excellent results if tuned properly. The AT systems are still at the mercy of the base maps they use. They all claim they will eventually self adjust. I don't think these systems are "there" yet. Brad Yuill likes the SERT with narrow band sensors, tuned just so they operate at 2000-3500 RPM, at up to half throttle. Way too many ideas out there right now. When the right AT comes along, believe me, we'll all know about it. Right now, I'm still not sold on it.

I've had a PC from day one. I'm adding a SERT to it now, to gain access to the ECM programming to change some parameters not accessible with the PC. No O2 sensors. Then final tune with the PC. Should be able to get the best manual tune available that way, with a qualified tuner. And I got one of them too! If they add narrow band O2 sensing to the PC, I might look into adding that as well. Brad's theory of having an economical AT range under normal light cruising loads makes good sense. But I'll have to think hard about that, since I'm very rarely cruising in the "normal light cruising areas"!

Hoist!

You're absolutely correct, Howie.  But there are two reasons why that plan is no good to me. 1) The majority of my miles are in a very different environment to where any tuning would be done, so AT is pretty near essential.  2) I can't get a decent dyno tune done here.  My experience with the DynoJet qualified tuner at one of their official places was all bad.  A total waste of time and <lots of> money.

So we haven't yet reached the Holy Grail, but for those of us - and as I say, there must be plenty guys in the US too - in my position, AT is better than none; AT which uses the Ion-Sensor is better again, and having that while being able to use a MoCo map that (supposedly) matches my config exactly, and keeping the factory ECM sounds pretty good to me.  Or, at least, a whole lot better than any alternative open to me. Sure, I won't get every last ounce of torque of every last HP, but my bike should run well enough, and reliably.  Allegedly. 

Jim

[Hoist!]

You're absolutely correct, Howie.  But there are two reasons why that plan is no good to me. 1) The majority of my miles are in a very different environment to where any tuning would be done, so AT is pretty near essential.  2) I can't get a decent dyno tune done here.  My experience with the DynoJet qualified tuner at one of their official places was all bad.  A total waste of time and <lots of> money.

So we haven't yet reached the Holy Grail, but for those of us - and as I say, there must be plenty guys in the US too - in my position, AT is better than none; AT which uses the Ion-Sensor is better again, and having that while being able to use a MoCo map that (supposedly) matches my config exactly, and keeping the factory ECM sounds pretty good to me.  Or, at least, a whole lot better than any alternative open to me. Sure, I won't get every last ounce of torque of every last HP, but my bike should run well enough, and reliably.  Allegedly. 

Jim

Fully agree Jim. If you know you don't have a really qualified expert tuner around, you'll still never be satisfied, and might still wind up very unhappy. So the AT might be a good compromise there. But right now, as you say, I still see it as a compromise, as opposed to trying to tune to "perfection", for both power and rideability.

Hoist!

Added: Holy crap, I just noticed, that was 10K!

[Eqcons]

Fully agree Jim. If you know you don't have a really qualified expert tuner around, you'll still never be satisfied, and might still wind up very unhappy. So the AT might be a good compromise there. But right now, as you say, I still see it as a compromise, as opposed to trying to tune to "perfection", for both power and rideability.

Holy crap, I just noticed, that was 10K!

Hoist!

Nail hit firmly on head! 

Congrats on the 10k!!

[Hoist!]

Nail hit firmly on head! 

Congrats on the 10k!!

Thank you Jim! I love this place!!!

Hoist!

[kona76]

In a market as large as Los Angeles is, finding superior tuning is rare. I can only imagine the frustration of Eqcons vast area, without quality facilities and an up to par or better trained tech. I have plenty of choices here, with many locations claiming Torque and Horsepower numbers like they're served with vintage wine and $300.00 steaks. Way too many claims for what I taste: McDonalds at a Tiffany's price.

IMHO, the value of a component which makes subtle adjustments and enhances performance is priceless. That's how I talked myself into purchasing an aftermarket closed loop system (Alpha N Mentor), it just makes sense. If it really works, and if it saves me time, money and I get to avoid the heavy load on my engine that the dyno requires, then I am all in.

So, Eqcons, I feel for ya. The technology is here folks. It's out there in the market, fighting the EPA and losing round after round. Existing self adjusting / self tuning etc. closed loop systems barely modify internal systems. Besides, our Stock ECM should handle these subtle adjustments without any additional equipment or costs. I want the HD Factory to do this with existing components, and avoid the whole aftermarket night mare of dyno's and loser technicians who are not capable or qualified to make such adjustments.

Very powerful CPU's are available in todays computer market. Why do we continue to purchase High Priced Top of the Line Motorcycles with such weak ECM functions?  It's ludicrous for the MOCO compelling us to purchase an upgrade to make the electronic adjustments function as it should.

Mike K.
kona76

[Eqcons]

It's ludicrous for the MOCO compelling us to purchase an upgrade to make the electronic adjustments function as it should.

 

[sefatboyscott]

I third that, but that is their game. The whole idea is to get you to buy more stuff. Willie G is the worlds best marketing dude on the planet. He knows that buying the bike is merely the beginning, no matter which bike you buy you will be back to upgrade something......the more the better, so you get the least they can get away with giving you out of the box..........it's been working great for them why would they change a thing? I don't blame em.

[Eqcons]

OK, I sent the following email to the HeadQuarters tech guy:

"I have an '07 110" FLHTCUSE2.  Standard except for a K&N Air Cleaner Element, True Dual headers, and Screamin' Eagle Performance Mufflers 65115-98B. The standard Stage 1 package if you will.
 
Currently I use a Thundermax with Autotune ECM, which, I'm sure you know, replaces the stock ECM.   It's OK, except one thing makes me uncomfortable with it - it doesn't use the Ion sensor, so cannot change the timing to cope with pinging.
 
Where I live, it's impossible to get a decent dyno tune, so I have to rely on "near enough" maps. Both the Thundermax and the SERT have maps that are - supposedly - near enough.  It's pretty essential that I have some autotune capability because of the lack of dyno tuning facilities, any mileage is done in climates and at altitudes far different from my home location.
 
When I go long distance touring, to keep the noise down, I change to HD Touring Mufflers, 65259-00, which are a lot quieter, and hence more restrictive.  I don't make any changes to the map, and - allegedly - the Thundermax can cope with such a change, and sort out the A/F ratio.  However, in hot temps and high altitudes, the motor pings like there's no tomorrow, and the Thundermax has no idea that's going on, because it can't use the Ion sensor, and thus cannot compensate
 
This is where (I hope!) your ProTuner comes in.  It looks like the Holy Grail to me, because it - assuming I read correctly - will autotune the A/F ratio, but since I would still have the stock ECU, able to sort out the timing when the motor starts pinging.  Am I right?
 
So - my main questions:  1) the Thundermax uses wide band O2 sensors, whereas with your ProTuner I'd be stuck with the stock narrow band ones.  Just how far does that allow the ProTuner to autotune?  2) Could it cope with the changes required when I change to the more restrictive mufflers for touring, without me having to change the map?"

And I just got the following reply:

"Hello Jim,

It also doesn't use your map sensor which is very beneficial when managing engine load and fuel delivery.

You are correct in your description of how the protuner will work with your factory ecm.

It will manage ratios from 12.8 to 14.7 which is perfect for our needs. It will have no problem adjusting to pipe/baffle changes. Basically, all you'd have to do is load your racetuner with the stage 1 map for your stock equipment, plug the protuner in and ride. The more you do, the better it will tune.

Thanks for your interest."

Which does sound good to me - I'm assuming when he says "It also doesn't use your map sensor" he means the TMAT, and that he means that it is very beneficial if it IS used.  Now, who'd like to be the guinea pig...?

Jim

[Twolanerider]

I'm assuming when he says "It also doesn't use your map sensor" he means the TMAT, and that he means that it is very beneficial if it IS used.  Now, who'd like to be the guinea pig...?

Jim

Jim, the Thundermax doesn't use the MAP sensor.  That it's "very beneficial" is really less so than it's just different.  Going from a speed density to an Alpha-N box changes the need and utility of the MAP sensor.  The ion sensor on the other hand would have the same utility for the Tmax as it does for the stock system; if the Tmax used it.  Which it does not.

Granted, the ion sensor adjusts over a relatively narrow range.  It's sort of an uber VOES.  But it's still the only thing on the bike that can do that job.  Zippers (apparently) trusts their maps so absolutely that they believe that their shi... oops, I mean that their system just can't ping.  Obviously what you heard and what I heard and what others have heard were psychotropic halluncinations rather than actual engine noises.