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[CVOmedic]

After HOURS AND HOURS of research, I finally decided on a new tuner for my '12 CVO street glide.  Tonight, I was talking with some buddies about my plans and mods.  I KNOW I will be adding an X Pipe from Fullsac along with a set of CFR slip ons.  Beyond that, I have no plans to do any future engine work or mods to my scooter.

That said, my friends suggested I save all my money and simply have the dealership remap the stock ECM with a map fitted to the headers and exhaust and call it a day.  They advised there is no reason to buy an aftermarket tuner if all I plan on doing is adding headers and slip ons.

So my question to you guys.....IS there really a reason for my to buy a tuner if all I am doing is switching headers and slip ons?  The guys were not sure if Harley is still able to remap the stock ECMs without adding a SEPST or SERT or whatever the hell they are called now (Harley race tuner), but they all suggested that I look into it before I sink a ton of money into a tuner I may have never really needed in the first place.

Thanks so much for any input!!!!!

[FLSTFI Dave]

I would add a tuner for just doing the x pipe and slip ons.  They let way more air though the engine, so the ECM needs to be set up for that.  A map from HD will still be very lean as mandated by EPA.

I and many on this site like or prefer the TTS Master Tune version.  Fulsac sells them and will have a map for your set up.

[grc]

After HOURS AND HOURS of research, I finally decided on a new tuner for my '12 CVO street glide.  Tonight, I was talking with some buddies about my plans and mods.  I KNOW I will be adding an X Pipe from Fullsac along with a set of CFR slip ons.  Beyond that, I have no plans to do any future engine work or mods to my scooter.

That said, my friends suggested I save all my money and simply have the dealership remap the stock ECM with a map fitted to the headers and exhaust and call it a day.  They advised there is no reason to buy an aftermarket tuner if all I plan on doing is adding headers and slip ons.

So my question to you guys.....IS there really a reason for my to buy a tuner if all I am doing is switching headers and slip ons?  The guys were not sure if Harley is still able to remap the stock ECMs without adding a SEPST or SERT or whatever the hell they are called now (Harley race tuner), but they all suggested that I look into it before I sink a ton of money into a tuner I may have never really needed in the first place.

Thanks so much for any input!!!!!

So basically you are getting advice from some guys who aren't sure anyone can actually do what they recommend you have done.  Hmmmmmm.  Sounds like they aren't exactly a good source for your research.

The only type of calibration (map) that the dealer can directly download to your ECM without a tuning device are the street legal canned maps they offer for the street legal stage I mods they sell.  That would be air cleaners and street legal mufflers.  Those maps do not address the lean mixture in closed loop operation, which will remain at the standard EPA mandated ratio.  Those maps also will not compensate for the difference in air flow caused by eliminating the catalytic converter when you change headpipes.

Almost without exception, people who have tried to remain stock and were later convinced to get their bikes tuned properly have come back and sang the praises of a good tune.  Until you've ridden a properly tuned Harley, you don't realize how poor the stock setup is.  And I'm not just talking about power, I'm talking about driveability and smoothness as well.

There are many alternatives on the market, from add on boxes to full blown tuning solutions.  My personal recommendation is to use one of the VCI (Vehicle Communication Interface) tuning packages like the TTS MasterTune to alter the map in the stock ECM.  You can find canned maps that will be close (Steve at Fullsac can help you with that), or you can do your own V-tune if you enjoy playing with the bike and software, or you can pay a professional to tune it on a dyno.  That's one of the nice things about these types of devices, they offer the most flexibility.  As much as we all say we don't plan to modify anything when we first buy the bikes, most of us eventually do.


Jerry

[cvobiker]

If you want to forget your tuner, try Revolution Performance EMS,,  lot of us here using the system and no sad stories I know of.... 

[mjb765]

If you want to forget your tuner, try Revolution Performance EMS,,  lot of us here using the system and no sad stories I know of.... 

If he goes that route he will need to purchase and 2010 or earlier ECM since Rev Perf still has not cracked the code to access the 2011 and later ECM's.

[BUBBLEHEAD]

Get a tuner, have your bike tuned properly, ride the s*** out of it.   NUFF SAID 

[Smitty2u]

IMHO.....  The best money spent during a modification is tied up in getting it tuned.  That would necessitate a good race tuner like TTS or SEPRT.  If it puts the project out of reach......  There's always next year.

[CVOmedic]

So basically you are getting advice from some guys who aren't sure anyone can actually do what they recommend you have done.  Hmmmmmm.  Sounds like they aren't exactly a good source for your research.

The only type of calibration (map) that the dealer can directly download to your ECM without a tuning device are the street legal canned maps they offer for the street legal stage I mods they sell.  That would be air cleaners and street legal mufflers.  Those maps do not address the lean mixture in closed loop operation, which will remain at the standard EPA mandated ratio.  Those maps also will not compensate for the difference in air flow caused by eliminating the catalytic converter when you change head pipes.

Almost without exception, people who have tried to remain stock and were later convinced to get their bikes tuned properly have come back and sang the praises of a good tune.  Until you've ridden a properly tuned Harley, you don't realize how poor the stock setup is.  And I'm not just talking about power, I'm talking about driveability and smoothness as well.

There are many alternatives on the market, from add on boxes to full blown tuning solutions.  My personal recommendation is to use one of the VCI (Vehicle Communication Interface) tuning packages like the TTS MasterTune to alter the map in the stock ECM.  You can find canned maps that will be close (Steve at Fullsac can help you with that), or you can do your own V-tune if you enjoy playing with the bike and software, or you can pay a professional to tune it on a dyno.  That's one of the nice things about these types of devices, they offer the most flexibility.  As much as we all say we don't plan to modify anything when we first buy the bikes, most of us eventually do.


Jerry

No, these guys are great and know what they are talking about.  The part they were not sure about is the ability of the dealership to still remap.  Their actual suggestion was to at least investigate the matter before I purchase a $500-900 tuner.  From the posts here, it seems as though they were correct, however, you guys have made great points to the fact that the factory maps would still be very restrictive and not allow the bike to run to it's full potential.  I did not really think about it from that perspective and has made me decide that purchasing a tuner will be a very smart investment.

I REALLY wanted the EMS solution from RevPerformance but as stated, they have yet to crack ECMs produced after 2010.  I have an email off to them to see where they are in development, but given they were "only a few weeks away" from cracking the '11s early last year, I am not too hopeful.

Of all the products, the TTS is what I am leaning towards.  I am glad to have the input here to push me into the buying pool and feel comfortable about spending the money, knowing this solution far exceeds what Harley may be able to provide.

Thanks guys!

[FUNGOUL]

take it here


http://www.hdmdtuningcenter.com/index.html

[darth davidson]

take it here


http://www.hdmdtuningcenter.com/index.html


[/quote

X2 

[willyB]

YES!

[glens]

No, these guys are great and know what they are talking about.  The part they were not sure about is the ability of the dealership to still remap.  Their actual suggestion was to at least investigate the matter before I purchase a $500-900 tuner

Forget about "the stage one downloads are too lean".  Yes, they're lean, but not that much more than any other setup running closed-loop using the stock O2 sensors.  I run closed-loop and recommend it be done whenever possible, especially if you intend to travel very much.  If you'll always be using the same fuel it's not so important to run closed-loop.

Even if you could get a dealer to load a stage one calibration into your bike, you're not addressing the intake breathing and that's the major player in the downloads.  On top of that, H-D will not have a calibration download (very) suitable for any set of headpipes that they didn't make, and they'd have to be "street legal" to boot, which means for your bike they'd have a cat inside.

In short, based upon your stated plans, you'd be just as well off running your stock calibration as having an H-D "stage one download" installed.  It's six of one and half a dozen of the other in terms of how the calibrations are unsuitable for your purposes.

I say the best money is currently spent on a TTS tuning kit with some cables.  Do a few v-tune runs as comprehensively as you can and your bike will run very well indeed.  You will quickly forget all about the ~$500.

[CVOmedic]

Thanks Glens.  I believe the TTS is gonna be the way to go.  If I get time tomorrow, I am going to go ahead and place my order for the headers and TTS from Steve.

Anyone know of a vender on the site for the CFRs?  Harley Direct has had the best price I could find so far.

Again, thanks everyone for the input!

[kiwihog]

If u r gonna get the headpipe and tuner from Steve get the 2.0 baffles from him also very easy install and great sound and you get to keep the muffler cans with all the CARB emissions disclaimers info stamped on em.

[Fattbaggernknox]

You don't really have to have a tuning device if you can find someone  who's knowledgeable with direct link tuning. I had mine tuned via direct link & i could'nt be happier!

[Midnight Rider]

Also something to think about and that is adding a non-Harley tuner to the bike could Void your warranty.  I added V&H mufflers to the bike (2012 SE Ultra) and will Wait to do the Xpipe later on.  Don't plan on doing a aftermarket tuner.  May not even add a Sert depends on how it runs.  Right now the bike runs really great. 

Technically speaking, doing ANY mods to the bike voids the warranty, even with HD's own product.  However, HD has to prove that the modification performed is the direct cause of the failure.  That's the law.  While adding slip on mufflers to the stock header pipe does not cause any real problems, when you change the header pipe and thus remove the catalytic converter, your bike is not going to run right if the ECM is left in stock configuration.  Period.

I can assure you that if you rode a bike that is properly tuned, whether it be with the TTS, SERT, or whatever, you would think your bike runs poorly in comparison.  And I'm not talking about HP/TQ (though that is improved with proper tuning), but simply drivability.  You just think your bike runs great right now.

If you own a laptop, you can work with the TTS yourself...even the "canned" maps provided by Fullsac will be a dramatic improvement over stock.  If you are concerned about warranty work, it takes about 15 minutes to load the stock ECM program back into the bike with the TTS, and Harley will never know it.  Of course, if you're on a trip somewhere and break down, that's a different matter, though a small laptop is something I normally carry on trips anyway.  Throwing in the TTS dongle and cables takes up hardly any room, so if you had to, you could load the stock map back in on the side of the road, before the wrecker comes to pick up the bike and take it to the dealer.

[CVOmedic]

Putting my order in today!  Fullsac, TTS and CFRs.  Spoke with Andrew over at RevPerformance and the word is there will be no EMS for '11 or '12 ECMs.  Didn't really get to ask him why not, but he said it didn't look like they were going to be able to offer a product.

So I hope you guys are ready for me to burn your eyes up with questions about this TTS!  LOL

[Midnight Rider]

It's an air pump...the cat is very restrictive with regards to pumping more air through the motor and out the exhaust.  When you remove the restriction, the motor pumps more air but the ECM is not progammed to add adequate fuel, so you make an already lean running engine run even leaner...that equals more heat and an engine that is starving for fuel.  The tuning device allows you to add more fuel when needed.  That's the simple version...

The bottom line is that if you change the head pipe to a catless version, you must also add a tuning device to compensate for the added flow through the intake/exhaust system.  The bike will drive and perform MUCH better than it does now.  There are hundreds of posts on here about this subject matter.

[Smitty2u]

Well today I checked with my Harley dealer and they said if you remove the cat it will not change it that much.

I would be looking for another dealer or shop to work on my scooter.

[mjb765]

I would be looking for another dealer or shop to work on my scooter.

X2

[Midnight Rider]

If all you do is replace the head pipe so you have no cat two HD dealers have now said no you do not need a tuner.  If you change header pipes and air cleaner probably will.

First, you ALREADY have a high flow air cleaner on the bike (the Ventilator), so changing the air cleaner assembly is totally unnecessary unless you just don't like the looks of it.  So that's the first thing your dealerships don't know their ass from a hole in the ground about.  Secondly, whether you put an aftermarket header pipe on the bike, or simply remove the CAT from the stock header pipe, PRECISELY the same thing is occurring...you are flowing more air through the intake/exhaust.  Many people on this forum have done just that...take the stock header pipe off, cut the pipe where the CAT is located, removed the CAT, welded the pipe back up, and reinstalled.  But I'd be willing to bet that 99% of those that did that (or put an aftermarket header on the bike, like the Jackpot, Fullsac X Pipe, V&H "H" pipe, true duals, etc) have a tuning device on the bike to add more fuel and improve performance/drivability.

If you don't' put a tuner on the bike after removing the CAT, your bike will run, but how well it runs is a different matter entirely.  Expect hotter engine temps, higher oil temps, and issues with throttle response.  It's your bike, so do/don't do whatever you choose, but both dealerships you've spoken to are either ignorant, lying, or both.  Or, they simply do not understand how their product operates.  That would not be unusual at a HD dealership.

We all welcome new members here, and if you ask a question, you will generally get excellent advice because we've all been there and done that...usually multiple times.  But if you choose to ignore solid advice by experienced HD owners, then that is certainly your prerogative.  However, don't keep saying "my dealer said this, or my dealer said that" when it is a well established fact that many dealers don't know their ass from their elbow, particularly if you are talking to a salesperson.  Your original (incorrect) statement has been more than adequately addressed.

[grc]

    It does make one wonder why folks would even hang around a site like this if they were so sure the dealership was such a great source of always accurate information.  That idea is especially funny to those of us who have had the opposite experience at several dealerships, where they didn't understand the basics, what equipment was supposed to be standard, or how to operate some of the stuff much less repair it.  It would be nice if every dealership had fully qualified and educated folks, but I'm not planning to hold my breath until they become reality.

If you want to look at the question literally, then no, you don't NEED a tuner.  If you're satisfied with less than optimum performance, fine.  However, if you plan to spend a grand or more on exhaust mods, it does seem rather silly to cheap out on the tune.  Why not just leave the whole thing stock and save the grand too?  It's a little like buying the fastest and most expensive PC on the market and hooking it up to a dial up internet connection to save a buck.


Jerry

[grc]

Sorry dude, but there is a big difference in just throwing on a set of slip-on mufflers versus a complete exhaust system including a catless headpipe.  And like I said, if you're happy with the way Harley tunes the stock bikes, feel free to leave the tune stock. When you decide to open your mind just a tiny bit, go find someone with a relatively stock bike that has been properly tuned and take it for a ride.  Then try to tell us you really prefer the stock tune.


Jerry

[Midnight Rider]

Guy I have been around for a long time, maybe not here.  This is my second CVO and did the whole tuner stuff with expensive exhaust to it and you know what I got a dog of a running bike.    You may think I'm kind of a stupid newbie here, you just have a one track mind, Tuners.  You remind me of another guy on another bike sit that pushes and pushes tuners.  You think every bike runs like crud if it don't have a tuner on it.  I'll bet you have spent way to much money on tuners in your life time. I'm gonna just enjoy this bike as it is with just the slip on mufflers and save my dollars and maybe buy a few more guns. Have a nice day.

That is NOT what you stated in prior posts.  You said that you were going to put an X pipe or similar (removing the CAT) on the bike and that your HD dealers told you it would run "fine".  That is pure, undiluted Bullchit.  In fact, I'm pretty sure nobody here REALLY gives a chit what you do, but are offering sound advice based on years of experience with HD motorcycles.  Any qualified mechanic would tell you exactly the same thing...note the "qualified" part of that statement.

If you are happy with the way your bike performs, then ride it and don't make statements based on poor information.  If you had a bike that was tuned and ran like crap, you simply got a bad tune by someone who didn't know WTF they were doing.  End of story.

[Doc 1]

Guy I have been around for a long time, maybe not here.  This is my second CVO and did the whole tuner stuff with expensive exhaust to it and you know what I got a dog of a running bike.    You may think I'm kind of a stupid newbie here, you just have a one track mind, Tuners.  You remind me of another guy on another bike sit that pushes and pushes tuners.  You think every bike runs like crud if it don't have a tuner on it.  I'll bet you have spent way to much money on tuners in your life time. I'm gonna just enjoy this bike as it is with just the slip on mufflers and save my dollars and maybe buy a few more guns. Have a nice day.

I've been around for a long time too and I say Jerry is 100% correct.
Doc

[Twolanerider]

I'm so young and beautiful I couldn't have been around a long time.  But when you look this good you don't worry about nonsense like newbies trying to show whose is bigger. 

[sadunbar]

I'm so young and beautiful I couldn't have been around a long time.  But when you look this good you don't worry about nonsense like newbies trying to show whose is bigger. 

Whose what?   

[Twolanerider]

Whose what?   

Just had a real urge to be Abbott to your Costello .


What who?

Exactly!

[Fired00d]

Look dude I said I might later on.  You are so full of crap I'm really tired of you, take a hike dude.

Maybe you should relax and think about if this forum is a good fit for you... you certainly aren't acting like it.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[sadunbar]

Just had a real urge to be Abbott to your Costello .


What who?

Exactly!

 

[Fired00d]

I just unsubscribe from this thread so that should help with everyone.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[grc]

Look dude I said I might later on.  You are so full of crap I'm really tired of you, take a hike dude.

You sound like some of those tweens on the social websites trying to sound cool and badass.  Please be advised that those of us who aren't easily impressed by teeny bopper bravado don't appreciate your provacative BS, DUDE.  If you don't like our advice, please exercise your freedom to ignore it and go back to chatting with the experts at your dealership.  But if you came on this site to just try to pick fights with other members, you need to either grow up or just move on.  Ignorance can be overlooked, but being an ignorant prick cannot.


Jerry

[110tHunDer]

 
I love this thread.

[CVOmedic]

Well damm....apparently I stirred up a hornet's nest with this one, my bad...LOL

I too, will have to agree that the guys over at HD may not be the most educated of folk.  This said after the salesman who was showing me the new features of the 2012 street glides said "yea, you got saddlebag speakers now and they also added a second amp and mounted it right here" and then commenced to point at the MP3 module!  This was not the only thing that I had to correct the salesman on.   It was apparent to me very quickly that the owners on this site have vast more knowledge about these machines then the guys who actually sale them.

I thank all of you for any input you may have on any question I pose to the forum!

So, now I sit and wait on my new goodies to show up!  A shout out to the guys and gal (Alice) over at Fullsac.

[SBB]

I love this thread.

Sure is entertaining.

  I can unsubscribe from a thread? That opens a whole world of possibilities! 

SBB

[110tHunDer]

Sure is entertaining.

  I can unsubscribe from a thread? That opens a whole world of possibilities! 

SBB

Unless I'm wrong, I thought if we're a member here, we're automatically subscribed to 'em all?!  Although, I'll be the first to admit that sometimes you have to dig a bit to find the truly hilarious ones.

[Twolanerider]

Sure is entertaining.

  I can unsubscribe from a thread? That opens a whole world of possibilities! 

SBB

Everyone can but you.  The site LOVES you so much it wants you EVERYWHERE.  The site is evil that way.

[Cvostu]

I really enjoyed this one too.  Can't believe how ignorant some can be.   Why come on here and ask questions and think you know it all?  Oh well. 

[Lever]

x2

[Midnight Rider]

I'm a member of The Church of The Latter-Day Dude, Dude...so I have special powers ordained by same.  Don't mess with me, or I'll send you Tacos through the mail...

[Twolanerider]

I'm a member of The Church of The Latter-Day Dude, Dude...so I have special powers ordained by same.  Don't mess with me, or I'll send you Tacos through the mail...

The Church would never lose its mellow over this kind of confrontation.  Though it would eat tacos.  Peace out.