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[TJMichigan]

does anyone have suggestions for exhaust and programmer for the 2010 SESG?  I want to keep the cool, large dual look, but need to open it up.  Wasn't happy with Power Commander V5 on my 09 SG because of the inability to have the tack match the engine with the rev limiter turned on and not using the 02 sensors.  Also had Bub true duals, but they seemed to suck on the horse power.  Suggestions??? Pics? 

[Joelgonia]

Dropped my bike off today with a specialty mechanic -- specialty being he is Harley certified and specializes in Harley high performance upgrades.  He recommends the new ThunderMax EFI tuner for the 2010 engines -- has about 30 installs and all are very happy -- quicker throttle response, cooler engine, better mpg.  Cost from the website is $900, plus installation.  Several commentaries here in CVOHarley.com -- search for em and enjoy the read.  FYI... I'm getting one of these with the V&H true duals and free-flow air cleaner.

[KaseyKahnefan]

I'm watching this thread closely. I'm in the same position. I'm looking for a little deeper rumble but nothing obnoxious and will leave the stock headers. So I'm looking for slipons and a tuner. The Thunder-max @ $900 seems out of line to me. Do these aftermarket tuners eliminate the program that turns off one cylinder when the engine get too hot? So I guess I'd add I'm looking for affordable options for an upgrade. It's my understanding that a person doesn't want to change the mufflers without re-tuning....?

[bjizel]

Check out Fullsac Performance (www.fullsac.com) Steve George 928-505-2912

[Mr. Wizard]

Check out Fullsac Performance (www.fullsac.com) Steve George 928-505-2912

+1

I think the majority of us have gone the Fullsac route. I, for one, am very pleased with the X-pipe, TTS and baffles. This is a very good combo so if you search for any other views here you may want to include Fullsac.

Which ever way you go, good luck with your mods and enjoy.   

-wiz

[Diamondback]

 

I'd check with Fullsac and Fuel Moto to get a fair comparison.

Both are very good.

 

[RedDevil]

I'm running the Vance and Hines Power Duals with the Basic 4" slippons and tuned with the SEST.  Cooler running engine, sounds great, runs great, and looks great.  I went with the SEST because that's what my tuner was more comfortable with.  My advice is go with whatever your tuner is more comfortable with. 

[Joelgonia]

Red Devil -- How do you like the V & H duals?  any comments good or bad?

[worshipduder]

Vance and Hines power duals , hi output slip ons and TTS AND BE DONE WITH IT 

[mjb765]

Dropped my bike off today with a specialty mechanic -- specialty being he is Harley certified and specializes in Harley high performance upgrades.  He recommends the new ThunderMax EFI tuner for the 2010 engines -- has about 30 installs and all are very happy -- quicker throttle response, cooler engine, better mpg.  Cost from the website is $900, plus installation.  Several commentaries here in CVOHarley.com -- search for em and enjoy the read.  FYI... I'm getting one of these with the V&H true duals and free-flow air cleaner.

Did you get the TMax done?? How is it? Did he use a dyno or did helet the unit do it's own tuning??? Inquiring minds need to know!!!

[Joelgonia]

gotta save up some cash -- need a trailer first!  Plan is to get my mods sometime this fall / winter.  Couple other threads in here discussing TMax pros & cons.  From what I read and have been told, TMax makes its own adjustments to maintain 13:1 burn at all rpm and throttle.  I'm a big believer in not reinventing the wheel -- One of the main reasons I enjoy this forum!!

[mjb765]

gotta save up some cash -- need a trailer first!  Plan is to get my mods sometime this fall / winter.  Couple other threads in here discussing TMax pros & cons.  From what I read and have been told, TMax makes its own adjustments to maintain 13:1 burn at all rpm and throttle.  I'm a big believer in not reinventing the wheel -- One of the main reasons I enjoy this forum!!

I'm planning to do the install over the winter as well.....thought you were having it done now from the previous post.

[DennisG]

I'm running the Vance and Hines Power Duals with the Basic 4" slippons and tuned with the SEST.  Cooler running engine, sounds great, runs great, and looks great.  I went with the SEST because that's what my tuner was more comfortable with.  My advice is go with whatever your tuner is more comfortable with. 

Hi RedDevil,

I have 2010 SE Ultra with  basic slip ons with stock cat pipe.  I am going to install power duals and get a good tune.  I like the sound of the basics but I am thinking if I was gonna change em out for a different muffler, now would be the time before the tune.  The sound may change after the power duals and the tune, maybe louder, smoother....  dunno,, maybe I should just keep the basics on and be done with it..  any thoughts on this subject?  Did you put the whole rig all at once or did you go a step at a time, maybe notice a change in the sound of basics with further additions...?

Thanks

Dennis

[RedDevil]

Hi RedDevil,

I have 2010 SE Ultra with  basic slip ons with stock cat pipe.  I am going to install power duals and get a good tune.  I like the sound of the basics but I am thinking if I was gonna change em out for a different muffler, now would be the time before the tune.  The sound may change after the power duals and the tune, maybe louder, smoother....  dunno,, maybe I should just keep the basics on and be done with it..  any thoughts on this subject?  Did you put the whole rig all at once or did you go a step at a time, maybe notice a change in the sound of basics with further additions...?

Thanks

Dennis

I put the basics on first with the stock head pipes because the Power Duals weren't available when I bought my SESG.  The basics got a little louder once the power duals were added, but not obnoxiously louder.  I can still listen to my stereo at highway speeds with no problem.  Other than that, they didn't change.  There was a noticeable change in performance once I added the power duals though and had the tune done.  If you like the sound of the basics now, keep them, you won't be disappointed in how they sound with the Power Duals. 

[wscott002]

I just installed V&H Power Duals with the 4" Rinehart slip-ons and HD Race Tuner & Dyno... 97 HP & 111 Torque... Sounds Great ! (Fairly simple install)

[Wheelsnkeels]

Running V&H Power Duals with BUB Boom Cans no tuner runs great still lean and hot.

Adding TTS and Reaper Cams this coming week 

Looked into the TMax, Nice unit pricey especially with autotune. Did not buy it as I already have the 2010 power duals with 12mm bungs. Not interested in repurchasing the 09 pipes to use autotune.
That said TTS is the best option without autotune and more affordable.

Having used power commanders and V&H Fuel Paks while they will do the job. Not as precisely and they take up valuable space. Also add another point of failure. The Autotunes are a nice feature but IMO in the end only as good as the tech adjusting them as well.

Thundermax unit replaces the ECM does a great job and takes no added space. 

TTS is not only more affordable it is very popular with many shops supporting it and it uses the factory ECM to get it done.

All that said the only real contenders were the TMax, TTS and SEST,

In the end widespread acceptance and available support went with the TTS.

The SESG also already has the Screaming Eagle Performance Ventilator High Flow Air Cleaner so there is no functiona; need to change them

[dep47]

I have the V&H True Duals and Monster Ovals Ness big sucker, and the Power Commander and dyno tune.  Not to loud runs cooler, 109 ftp of torque 93 HP.  The tuner was the most confident with this set up so I went with it.  Very pleased with the results.  He claimed he could do a better job of tuning each cylinder separately with the true duals.

[DennisG]

All my parts are in...  Next Tues I go from stock header with cat, SE Heavy Breather and VH Basics to VH power duals header, Hi Output slip ons and TTS and Dynotune!  Also bought the quiet baffles for those and I am gonna try to get him to pop em in after tuning it in louder mode and do one pull to see what changes occur.  I would like to be able to swap baffles in and out loud to quiet(er) if it is possible to do without paying for another complete tune....

Dennis

[NordSailOne]

Dennis, I would be interested in knowing how that worked out. I am considering the same, do not want it too loud, just want it louder than stock. Obviously want the added torque.

[DennisG]

Well, here is a description of what happened that I posted in another thread....Due to some unforeseen circumstances, things did not go as planned. 



"I just had some new pipes, slip ons  and a dynotune.... it was a bit of an adventure as I went to a different state to get the tune trailering the bike there.  I had the pipes and mufflers delivered there and when I arrived we opened the box on the power duals and VH had changed the position of one of the O2 sensors and the tuner did not think we should use them.  I was bummed, I had driven 4 hours and I have been waiting since I got the bike and had been doing research to select my components.  After conversing with VH and some additional experts, it seemed that it would probably be OK and so I decided to go for it.  I was away when they installed the mufflers and began to tune.  When I got back, I wasnt sure I really liked the sound of the VH hi outputs... but anyway we got 96 HP and 112 torque on one of the pulls.

After I got the bike home, it didnt sound good to me at all and didnt seem to run so good either and I was really depressed after all that effort and spending plenty of money.... I only rode for about a half hour the first day and was second guessing my decision to have those pipes put on against the recommendation of the tuner.

But after and hour or so of riding the next day the bike really settled in and came alive.  Now I am really starting to dig the sound and it runs fantastic..very much more powerful and torquey.  I was thinking it may have been because we tuned the bike in a rather mountainous area and I trailed it home to a lower elevation, maybe the ECM took a little time to dial itself in after I first started riding it.   It is very good now. "

OK I am back...The bike runs a lot better than it did,  but there is doubt as to whether or not it is really right. There was some concern from the tuner that the ECM might put the bike out of tune due to being confused because of the bungs being in different locations.  The last few days it doesn't seem as good again. Not as smooth, a little bit coarse. More decel popping.    Might just be my mind playing tricks on me.  He also gave me a map with the O2 Sensors turned off so I can pop that in and see if it goes back to good once I get some cables, but again, that map was made in the mountains of PA.  Will it be really right?  Oh the curse of being an analytical perfectionist that can see the flaws in every circumstance! 

Dennis

[Wheelsnkeels]

The O2 sensor are relocated near the exhaust ports where they belong. basically the 2009 locations this is due to not having a cat. The 2010 factory locations are there due to the cat being inline. This location is not optimum without the cat installed.

[DennisG]

The O2 sensor are relocated near the exhaust ports where they belong. basically the 2009 locations this is due to not having a cat. The 2010 factory locations are there due to the cat being inline. This location is not optimum without the cat installed.

Actually only one of them has been moved closer to the exhaust port,  the one for the rear pipe.  The front pipe sensor is still in 2010 stock location.  This introduces different distances from the exhaust ports for each cylinder, different mixture and different exhaust gas temps.  Because of this, I am told it becomes difficult to tune the cylinders equally.  

I can see why there might  be problems with the stock locations without cat causing possible crosstalk, but I think the solution they chose to move only one sensor is not a good one.

Also, the type of sensor is different, smaller and has a lower limit as to how much heat it can tolerate.  Moving the sensor closer to the exhaust port puts it in a much hotter area.   Steve Cole is concerned about the potential for sensor failure.  Read this thread here:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=51733.0

It includes a link to the Bosch PDF that describes proper use of the sensors and temp limits.  

Dennis

[RedDevil]

Actually only one of them has been moved closer to the exhaust port,  the one for the rear pipe.  The front pipe sensor is still in 2010 stock location.  This introduces different distances from the exhaust ports for each cylinder, different mixture and different exhaust gas temps.  Because of this, I am told it becomes difficult to tune the cylinders equally.  

I can see why there might  be problems with the stock locations without cat causing possible crosstalk, but I think the solution they chose to move only one sensor is not a good one.

Also, the type of sensor is different, smaller and has a lower limit as to how much heat it can tolerate.  Moving the sensor closer to the exhaust port puts it in a much hotter area.   Steve Cole is concerned about the potential for sensor failure.  Read this thread here:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=51733.0

It includes a link to the Bosch PDF that describes proper use of the sensors and temp limits.  

Dennis

I can't believe that a company like Vance and Hines wouldn't have tested the configuration they have.   My dealer talked to them about this issue when they installed and tuned my pipes and they stated that there wouldn't be any issues.     They haven't changed the design of the location of the bungs for the whole model year, so they must not think there will be any problems.

[Hawg]

Vance and Hines power duals , hi output slip ons and TTS AND BE DONE WITH IT 

I have the same setup and could not be happier, only difference is I went with a SERT 

[DennisG]

I can't believe that a company like Vance and Hines wouldn't have tested the configuration they have.   My dealer talked to them about this issue when they installed and tuned my pipes and they stated that there wouldn't be any issues.    They haven't changed the design of the location of the bungs for the whole model year, so they must not think there will be any problems.

My understanding is that the Power Duals originally went out with the bungs in the stock locations. This is the way the tuner I used and Doc had seen the power duals originally and both of them indicated that it was a perfectly fine pipe to use.   They were surprised to see the new bung location.  

When I was at the place where I had the bike tuned, the rep from Drag Specialties stopped in and indicated that when they had the bungs in stock locations they began to experience some error codes  with their fuel pak and so they moved one bung.  It might eliminate fuel pak error messages, but we are not convinced that it is overall a good idea when tuning in depth if you are looking for a perfect job.  

Just think about it...  how can the sensors be reading the same thing when they are in two completely different locations?

[RedDevil]

My understanding is that the Power Duals originally went out with the bungs in the stock locations. This is the way the tuner I used and Doc had seen the power duals originally and both of them indicated that it was a perfectly fine pipe to use.   They were surprised to see the new bung location.  

When I was at the place where I had the bike tuned, the rep from Drag Specialties stopped in and indicated that when they had the bungs in stock locations they began to experience some error codes  with their fuel pak and so they moved one bung.  It might eliminate fuel pak error messages, but we are not convinced that it is overall a good idea when tuning in depth if you are looking for a perfect job.  

Just think about it...  how can the sensors be reading the same thing when they are in two completely different locations?

Dunno... ...all I know is I got the Power Duals for my SESG shortly after they hit the market (Nov 09) and the bungs were not in the stock location.  I had my bike tuned by the dealer and I'm pushing just over 90hp and 108 TQ and it runs great...the only issue that I have noticed is that it takes longer than my 07 SEUC to settle down to low idle when first starting the bike with a cold engine.  But that's no big deal to me.

[DennisG]

Hey it runs pretty good and for all I really know, it may be an insignificant thing.  I am not an expert on these things, although I have been studying them ferociously of late. 

I would prefer if everything was balanced and everyone agreed that all was  well.  Unfortunately some doubt has been injected into the equation for me and I dont like that.

Also, I am going from memory on my various recollections, and although I have an excellent memory, it is extremely short! 

[RedDevil]

Hey it runs pretty good and for all I really know, it may be an insignificant thing.  I am not an expert on these things, although I have been studying them ferociously of late. 

I would prefer if everything was balanced and everyone agreed that all was  well.  Unfortunately some doubt has been injected into the equation for me and I dont like that.

Also, I am going from memory on my various recollections, and although I have an excellent memory, it is extremely short! 

I don't tend to worry about it and just ride.   The bike runs great and if/when I do have a problem, I'll worry about it then.   

[Badger Mike]

I went with the V&H Dresser Duals and HO Slip-on's.  Added a PCV to the system and once it was properly mapped, it really pulls hard.  I'm very happy with the performance and equally the sound.  I initially had some difficulty with the intermittent cruise control problems with the PCV, but that seemingly went away when we got the bike properly tuned.

 

[DennisG]

Ok little update for y'all.  When i test road the bike after the tune, I noted when I first started it that there was a ticking sound coming from motor.  I asked if it could be an exhaust leak since we just had installed the pipe or if it was the air sucking into the heavy breather.  The guy seemed to think it was the air cleaner.  Earlier during the tune he showed me an imbalance in the two cylinders and attributed it to a venturi effect from the heavy breather air cleaner I have.\

.
To make a long story short, the bike has run very inconsistently since I got it back, sometimes rather poorly.  So I took it in to the local dealer to see if there was an exhaust leak and the guy came out and tested the exhaust and sprayed some stuff in the intake and it turns out its a intake leak!
So apparently the struggles that the guy was having tuning it were probably somewhat related to the intake leak.  He should have probably picked up on it at the time but we were rushed and hey nobody's perfect. So I guess it wasn't the heavy breather, I think now it was the intake leak creating the imbalance.

That is good news in that at least  I think I am on the way to getting it to run right.

So I call them to tell them about it and they say they will retune it but it is four hours away and i say I don't know if I want to go through that again.  Cost me 300 for the trailer gas and a hotel room that became necessary when the issues arose and made it take much longer.

So the service manager says 'We'll come and pick it up, I stand behind my work'    So 20 minutes after she tells me this, the guy is on the road.   the guy drives four hours, picks up the bike and drove 4 hours back!   And then they are going to deliver it to me next week.  Yikes!  Now that is service! I just hope they can get it running right.     I'm hopeful that they will....   

dennis

[timtoolman]

Sounds like zepka harley in johnstown, kim is a great service manager (cute also),  Brian the tuner was trained by doc and i hear he's pretty good, Ill be seing him soon i hope

[hdnik]

I wrestled with the same questions. I think most would agree that the stock header has to go... at minimum the cat has to be removed, the mufflers have to be at least 4" to fill the hole between the bag extensions and fender and IMHO you should use either the TTS master tune or the SEPST rather than a "piggy back" tuner.

I went with V-H true duals (I like appearance and sound better), Klockwerks Revolver cans (i like the angled billet end caps and tone better), SE Heavy Breather, and SEPST (my tuner was more comfortable and I like that)

Also recommend dyno tune rather than smart tune. A good dyno man(with experience using the tuner software) can maximize power and torque curves down in the RPM range, smooth it out, maximize the air fuel ratio and deal with any driveability issues unique to your bike and setup. Mine Dyno's at 92HP @ 4500RPM, 112TRQ with AFR flatlined around 13.2 to 1. Most of the torque kicks in at about 2300 rpm. The Engine temps went way down, throttle response way better, couldn't be happier.

If you are going to spend the money on exhaust and tuner... budget the additional $200 for the dyno time.

[DennisG]

My bike was delivered to me yesterday and it now runs consistently fantastic.  I am very pleased with it.   

[Wheelsnkeels]

Running V&H Power Duals with BUB Boom Cans no tuner runs great still lean and hot.

Adding TTS and Reaper Cams this coming week 

Looked into the TMax, Nice unit pricey especially with autotune. Did not buy it as I already have the 2010 power duals with 12mm bungs. Not interested in repurchasing the 09 pipes to use autotune.
That said TTS is the best option without autotune and more affordable.

Having used power commanders and V&H Fuel Paks while they will do the job. Not as precisely and they take up valuable space. Also add another point of failure. The Autotunes are a nice feature but IMO in the end only as good as the tech adjusting them as well.

Thundermax unit replaces the ECM does a great job and takes no added space. 

TTS is not only more affordable it is very popular with many shops supporting it and it uses the factory ECM to get it done.

All that said the only real contenders were the TMax, TTS and SEST,

In the end widespread acceptance and available support went with the TTS.

The SESG also already has the Screaming Eagle Performance Ventilator High Flow Air Cleaner so there is no functiona; need to change them

Installed Fueling 574 Reaper Cams, Fueling lifters and Screaming Eagle adjustable pushrods. Tuned it with the TTS Mastertune 
Had no Idea what was missing never ran so good and cooler now too!

Noticeably stronger off the line and pulling strong through 6K RPM