Topic: Help with my 120r (Read 12760 times)

SDCVO · « **on:** January 26, 2014, 09:34:06 PM »

I have about 5000 miles on my crate 120r and it runs amazing after being tuned by Bob Lobenburg at RC Cycles all the thru the power band but I have occasional problem starting it with backfires and puffs of smoke coming out of the air cleaner while other times (mostly) it lights right off. When i have the problem I will have to try to start it up to 5 times before it will light off and I am worried i might be doing some damage? Went for around 250 miles today and probably start/stopped 10 times with have the problem twice. I would just take it back to Bob but I am in San Diego and I took it up to No Cal so he could tune it but it was very difficult and don't have the ability to get it back up there. I am hoping it is no big deal and not hurting anything in which case I will stop worrying about it. I have attached the Dyno to show how well he tuned it and though I get that it isn't just the dyne numbers that count, it really does run unbelievably smooth and strong with that exception.

sadunbar · « **Reply #1 on:** January 26, 2014, 09:59:47 PM »

Quote from: SDCVO on January 26, 2014, 09:34:06 PM

I have about 5000 miles on my crate 120r and it runs amazing after being tuned by Bob Lobenburg at RC Cycles all the thru the power band but I have occasional problem starting it with backfires and puffs of smoke coming out of the air cleaner while other times (mostly) it lights right off. When i have the problem I will have to try to start it up to 5 times before it will light off and I am worried i might be doing some damage? Went for around 250 miles today and probably start/stopped 10 times with have the problem twice. I would just take it back to Bob but I am in San Diego and I took it up to No Cal so he could tune it but it was very difficult and don't have the ability to get it back up there. I am hoping it is no big deal and not hurting anything in which case I will stop worrying about it. I have attached the Dyno to show how well he tuned it and though I get that it isn't just the dyne numbers that count, it really does run unbelievably smooth and strong with that exception.

How old is your compensator? Classic sign of a compensator wear - loosing tension...

SDCVO · « **Reply #2 on:** January 26, 2014, 10:05:56 PM »

Bike has about 17000 miles, compensator never replaced

timo482 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 26, 2014, 11:21:39 PM »

Compensator or compression releases

SDCVO · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:31:36 AM »

Does that make sense that the auto compression release would not work sometimes? When it happens, it almost feels like the pistons have stopped in the wrong place or something. Obviously I am not very mechanically inclined so that might be a very stupid comment i know. The motor is turning over but is either backfiring or coughing smoke. The next time i try it it either does the same thing or immediately fires up

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:34:02 AM »

Compensator?

What clutch do you have with the 120?

I know that it's a ways, but it's a nice ride back to your tuner...

SDCVO · « **Reply #6 on:** January 27, 2014, 01:05:51 AM »

Barnett Scorpion clutch

grc · « **Reply #7 on:** January 27, 2014, 08:54:11 AM »

I don't think you actually said if this problem has been occurring since immediately after the tune, or if it's something that has started recently and gotten worse over time. If the latter, I'd suspect the compensator as sadunbar mentioned previously, since that was a common sign of a worn compensator or weak springs. As for the auto compression releases, those can stick or have intermittent electrical issues so they may work one time and not the next. If this is occurring as often as your post makes it seem, I'd think back-to-back compression tests might expose an intermittent compression release.

Jerry

sadunbar · « **Reply #8 on:** January 27, 2014, 09:00:42 AM »

Quote from: grc on January 27, 2014, 08:54:11 AM

I don't think you actually said if this problem has been occurring since immediately after the tune, or if it's something that has started recently and gotten worse over time. If the latter, I'd suspect the compensator as sadunbar mentioned previously, since that was a common sign of a worn compensator or weak springs. As for the auto compression releases, those can stick or have intermittent electrical issues so they may work one time and not the next. If this is occurring as often as your post makes it seem, I'd think back-to-back compression tests might expose an intermittent compression release.

Jerry

With 17K on the compensator, and 135/135+, it's highly likely a worn compensator causing the issue. Classic symptoms. Knowing Bob, it's not tune related. The symptoms don't relate to a tune issue either. To have it "backfires and puffs of smoke coming out of the air cleaner" a spark plug has to be firing with an intake valve slightly open - which points to a worn compensator.

sprinkman · « **Reply #9 on:** January 27, 2014, 09:33:13 AM »

Make sure your releases are turned on, when they tune sometimes they turn them off.

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #10 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:45:49 AM »

I would bet that it is fuel related . The pop and cough on start up is due to lack of fuel. Intake leak or needs a slight bump on cold start fuel and or inj pulse on start up. I have seen some of the most beat to death comps and not one has ever effected how the bike started. Call Bob and he can make a change to the map and reload it .

ultrafxr · « **Reply #11 on:** January 27, 2014, 11:00:31 AM »

Good suggestions all. I would add another possibility - a weak battery. Had a similar problem last year on my '07 - it would sometimes 'hang' and then spin again. Couple times it did cough back like you describe. Dealer did diagnostic on battery and said it was marginal. I really did not think that was the problem since it was only about two years old and is always kept on battery tender. But I went ahead and bought a Deka battery which completely solved my problem.

Phaq2 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 27, 2014, 12:00:47 PM »

I don't want to hi-jack the thread but my modified 110 kit has similar symptoms on hot starts this past season. Up until it was fine!

The OP posted "Went for around 250 miles today and probably start/stopped 10 times with have the problem twice" This makes it sound like hot starts to me but ??

Mine's in the shop now and they are looking at the ACR's. My SE comp has 45,000 miles at 119hp/130tq.

Fullsac Performance · « **Reply #13 on:** January 27, 2014, 01:01:21 PM »

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on January 27, 2014, 10:45:49 AM

I would bet that it is fuel related . The pop and cough on start up is due to lack of fuel. Intake leak or needs a slight bump on cold start fuel and or inj pulse on start up. I have seen some of the most beat to death comps and not one has ever effected how the bike started. Call Bob and he can make a change to the map and reload it .

I agree. Maybe add just a touch to the "cranking Fuel" table first and see if it helps.

SG

Hog95023 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 27, 2014, 03:14:23 PM »

My 124 did that too after it was tuned by bob and I had a new compensator.

Fullsac Performance · « **Reply #15 on:** January 27, 2014, 04:57:44 PM »

Has anybody ever tried to drill out the orifice in the stock comp release to bleed off more volume for the larger motors?
Getting it to spin faster right out of the gate seems like it could help too. Even my new 2014 103 seems like it cranks slow and could use some more bleed off.

SG

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #16 on:** January 27, 2014, 06:21:47 PM »

'Know y'all are talking built motors here but, the '05 SEEG (bone stock) acts the same way on some fuel stops (hot restarts, only). When I start the bike in neutral, on the kickstand, no clutch, just hit the button, it doesn't sneeze any where near as much as when the bike is upright. I know my process might sound funny, but even though the bike is EFI, it seems to have a "start sequence" that it prefers. Nowhere near as critical as kicking the Shovel lol!

Steve, I have wondered the same thing about "drilling" the ACRs, please let us know what size bit we need to use when you figure it out

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #17 on:** January 27, 2014, 06:26:58 PM »

From what I see many times the engines that are modded will require extra fuel on the start and restart hot can some times want a fair amount of extra fuel to light right off. Many times when tuning that can be tricky based on what the temp is when its tuned. Super cold stuff can be a crap shoot and all you can do is add a little extra over what is working at the coldest temp you have to deal with. Hot restart .. well thats easy let the bike get up to say 275 temp. Shut it down let it sit for 10 minutes or so and then see what the temp climbs to and see how it starts.

The stock ACR pulses as the engine cranks so it is NOT a open / closed item. Stock ACR will yield approx 40-50 lbs of reduced PSI.

SDCVO · « **Reply #18 on:** January 27, 2014, 07:24:54 PM »

Definitely doing it more lately and before last weekend, never happened at cold start (did happen on the 2nd day at first start where I had to hit it twice). For the first couple of thousand miles it only happened a couple of times but now about 20% of the time. Talked to my dealer today and they are going to warranty (I think that is very cool of them)the compensator to the brand new one that just came out on Wednesday. I am hoping that will take care of the problem. I really cant imagine it being the tune because it runs amazing in every other aspect..

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #19 on:** January 27, 2014, 09:11:11 PM »

Quote from: SDCVO on January 27, 2014, 07:24:54 PM

Talked to my dealer today and they are going to warranty (I think that is very cool of them)the compensator to the brand new one that just came out on Wednesday. I am hoping that will take care of the problem. I really cant imagine it being the tune because it runs amazing in every other aspect..

Are they going to glue the piece in the primary cover or are you going to get the new primary cover with the trough built in?

Let us know if the new comp gets rid of the starting issue

sadunbar · « **Reply #20 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:27:01 PM »

Quote from: FlaHeatWave on January 27, 2014, 09:11:11 PM

Are they going to glue the piece in the primary cover or are you going to get the new primary cover with the trough built in?

Let us know if the new comp gets rid of the starting issue

If done properly (following the instructions), there's no reason to fear gluing the new trough into the primary cover. It's not worth the expense of buying a new primary cover...

JMO...

INDEPENDENT_1 · « **Reply #21 on:** January 27, 2014, 10:44:31 PM »

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on January 27, 2014, 10:45:49 AM

I would bet that it is fuel related . The pop and cough on start up is due to lack of fuel. Intake leak or needs a slight bump on cold start fuel and or inj pulse on start up. I have seen some of the most beat to death comps and not one has ever effected how the bike started. Call Bob and he can make a change to the map and reload it .

I agree with this.

grc · « **Reply #22 on:** January 28, 2014, 09:06:38 AM »

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on January 27, 2014, 10:45:49 AM

...............................
I have seen some of the most beat to death comps and not one has ever effected how the bike started.
...............................

Perhaps a little clarification is in order. If the sliding surfaces and thrust surfaces are worn, then you are most likely correct. However, if you think back to the original compensator design with the highly variable spring packs, plenty of those POS's did in fact cause starting problems. There are many many reports of starting issues being fixed by replacing or shimming those spring packs. The same has occasionally been reported even with the later compensators. If replacing the compensator and spring pack fixes the problem, as several have reported, then I think it's a valid place to look before assuming a tune that worked fine before has suddenly changed on it's own and is getting worse. People way too often jump straight to the tune before eliminating the mechanical possibilities, thus just covering up the real problem until it gets much worse. Things like air leaks for instance. I specifically asked the OP if this problem was evident from the beginning or has just recently started, to help determine if perhaps it was related to the tune. I believe the indication was that it has been getting worse over time.

JMHO - Jerry

SBB · « **Reply #23 on:** January 28, 2014, 09:39:22 AM »

Quote from: sadunbar on January 27, 2014, 09:00:42 AM

With 17K on the compensator, and 135/135+, it's highly likely a worn compensator causing the issue. Classic symptoms. Knowing Bob, it's not tune related. The symptoms don't relate to a tune issue either. To have it "backfires and puffs of smoke coming out of the air cleaner" a spark plug has to be firing with an intake valve slightly open - which points to a worn compensator.

I'm thinking sadunbar has this one nailed.
Bob at RC does a great tune.
Having been thru a 120 @140/141 and two 110's with the same symptoms a replacement compensator solved the problem.

SBB

VANAMAL · « **Reply #24 on:** January 28, 2014, 10:17:36 AM »

My bike became hard to start about 50% of the time. It would cough back and start hard. It hasnt done it since the new compensator was put in. Easy install and the new design looks improved

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #25 on:** January 28, 2014, 11:05:09 AM »

Opinions are what they are. . A tune that is just off a touch can be causing the issue. Bob and I are friends its nothing against him on a personal level. Every one of us that tune for a living has had this come up. The thing is,.. it is a simple item to make a change to reload the map and see what happens before buying parts. This time of year you are also dealing with changing fuel type. It may be more than one thing as well, will have to see what happens.

hrdtail78 · « **Reply #26 on:** January 28, 2014, 08:24:10 PM »

What happens when you roll throttle a bit while starting?

SDCVO · « **Reply #27 on:** January 28, 2014, 11:15:08 PM »

It either fires up immediately or does the backfire/cough smoke deal regardless if i roll the throttle a bit or not. It definitely has got much worse over time. Taking it in first thing tomorrow and will report back if the compensator fixes it or not. Obviously hoping thats the problem.

SDCVO · « **Reply #28 on:** January 29, 2014, 10:14:09 PM »

Good news is that it looks like it was the compensator as the tech said it looked bad when he took it out. Bad news is that he found a cracked clutch basket and the part is on back order. The dealer did find a few in other inventories on the east coast and are trying to get one of them to give it to them so they can overnight it. Great news is that they warrantied the compensator and the clutch (I put in a Barnett Scorpian) which i think is amazing of them and have told me that if they can't get the clutch basket from the other dealer will give me a loaner bike until the part comes in. I know many have had bad experiences with dealers but I gotta say that I think this is going way above and beyond for me and really wasn't even expecting them to do it. I would definitely call that "world class service".
Thanks to all for the help!

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #29 on:** January 30, 2014, 01:11:28 AM »

Quote from: SDCVO on January 29, 2014, 10:14:09 PM

Good news is that it looks like it was the compensator as the tech said it looked bad when he took it out. Bad news is that he found a cracked clutch basket and the part is on back order. The dealer did find a few in other inventories on the east coast and are trying to get one of them to give it to them so they can overnight it. Great news is that they warrantied the compensator and the clutch (I put in a Barnett Scorpian) which i think is amazing of them and have told me that if they can't get the clutch basket from the other dealer will give me a loaner bike until the part comes in. I know many have had bad experiences with dealers but I gotta say that I think this is going way above and beyond for me and really wasn't even expecting them to do it. I would definitely call that "world class service".
Thanks to all for the help!

What Dealer? The boys at Sweetwater hooked me up last Oct...

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #30 on:** January 30, 2014, 10:27:05 AM »

Cracked basket will create weird starting issues. I watched one that was cranking and the clutch can slip a minor amount and and it will try to kick back and you get the cough. Glad to hear they are taking car of the issue. Hope that sorts it out

SDCVO · « **Reply #31 on:** January 30, 2014, 11:52:53 AM »

Quote from: FlaHeatWave on January 30, 2014, 01:11:28 AM

What Dealer? The boys at Sweetwater hooked me up last Oct...

San Diego Harley

INDEPENDENT_1 · « **Reply #32 on:** January 30, 2014, 08:06:14 PM »

Evolution Industries makes a stouter basket if you were interested in beefing it up. That's not the first clutch basket that has broken especially with a higher performance motor. Glad you got to the source!

SDCVO · « **Reply #33 on:** January 31, 2014, 12:16:03 AM »

Quote from: INDEPENDENT_1 on January 30, 2014, 08:06:14 PM

Evolution Industries makes a stouter basket if you were interested in beefing it up. That's not the first clutch basket that has broken especially with a higher performance motor. Glad you got to the source!

Since they are covering it under warranty I will hope this one holds. They did get the part from the east coast and overnighted it so I should be "back on the road" by tomorrow night which is awesome!

swedgeblock · « **Reply #34 on:** January 31, 2014, 12:04:58 PM »

Sadunbar has been right on with any questions or problems I have had in the past, and I have appreciated his help!
One thing I find funny is the Factory came out with a new compensator this year. My 13 Road Glide sounds like it wants to keep running when I shut her down at times, and I will bet dollars to donuts its the compensator. Thankful its still under warrenty.

SDCVO · « **Reply #35 on:** January 31, 2014, 11:40:26 PM »

Sadunbar was right on the money! Picked it up today and it is perfect. I started and stopped it about 20 times throughout the day without any issue. I do appreciate the dealer taking care of me and appreciate all the help here..

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #36 on:** February 01, 2014, 12:48:04 PM »

Quote from: SDCVO on January 31, 2014, 11:40:26 PM

Sadunbar was right on the money! Picked it up today and it is perfect. I started and stopped it about 20 times throughout the day without any issue. I do appreciate the dealer taking care of me and appreciate all the help here..

So, replacing the Comp and the Clutch Basket fixed it?

grc · « **Reply #37 on:** February 01, 2014, 01:49:54 PM »

Finding the real root cause (compensator), as opposed to blaming a tune that worked fine before, seems to have solved another problem.

It's amazing how finding and fixing mechanical or electrical problems, as opposed to trying to cover them up with tuning "tweaks", seems to work so much better than starting at the wrong end of the equation. There's another thread that was recently updated where many people tried to tell someone it was a tune problem (high idle when hot) when it turned out to be a defective sensor once the owner found a place to do proper diagnostics.

I'm glad your problem has been correctly solved SDCVO and you didn't waste a lot of time and effort trying to get Bob to somehow "tune out" a mechanical defect.

Just my two cents and semi-rant for the day.

Jerry

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #38 on:** February 01, 2014, 03:14:25 PM »

Rant on

timo482 · « **Reply #39 on:** February 01, 2014, 05:17:07 PM »

Absolutely, keep on ranting common sense, we all need a dose of it at times

Twolanerider · « **Reply #40 on:** February 01, 2014, 08:59:14 PM »

Rant on. Rant off. I know it's not polite to make fun of my accent; but what the hell, go ahead. At least I'm taller than Mr. Miyagi.

SDCVO · « **Reply #41 on:** February 01, 2014, 11:30:12 PM »

Quote from: FlaHeatWave on February 01, 2014, 12:48:04 PM

So, replacing the Comp and the Clutch Basket fixed it?

Yes, went for another couple hundred miles today and the problem is completely gone. Started immediately every time even in gear at stoplights in gear with the cloth pulled (just making sure...)

FLTRI · « **Reply #42 on:** January 06, 2015, 04:09:38 PM »

Quote from: SDCVO on January 28, 2014, 11:15:08 PM

It either fires up immediately or does the backfire/cough smoke deal regardless if i roll the throttle a bit or not. It definitely has got much worse over time. Taking it in first thing tomorrow and will report back if the compensator fixes it or not. Obviously hoping thats the problem.

That seems to indicate a timing (fuel and ignition) issue caused by a crappy compensator. It's amazing to see a super slow motion video of the compensator in action during cranking a higher compression build...even with auto compression releases.

The only reason I would tend to feel this way is because it is wayyyy intermittent and getting worse over time.

snowrider13 · « **Reply #43 on:** January 06, 2015, 05:33:35 PM »

Having the same issue with my 2013 cvo RG. Can someone explain the fuel/timing issue and how it relates to the bad compensator. I am not doubting the outcome, just need to understand it. Thanks Folks

FLTRI · « **Reply #44 on:** January 07, 2015, 08:03:02 PM »

ECM counts teeth on the flywheel. Compensator allows the flywheel to rock back and forth during cranking.
ECM get in correct tooth count and fires at the wrong time. Eventually it will get it right and start...most of the time.
The bigger the build, the higher the compression, the worse it rears it's ugly head.
Hope this helps,
Bob

snowrider13 · « **Reply #45 on:** January 08, 2015, 07:42:35 AM »

Thanks FLTRI, makes sense.

rheiner · « **Reply #46 on:** January 08, 2015, 12:05:09 PM »

Quote from: GMR-PERFORMANCE on January 27, 2014, 10:45:49 AM

I would bet that it is fuel related . The pop and cough on start up is due to lack of fuel. Intake leak or needs a slight bump on cold start fuel and or inj pulse on start up. I have seen some of the most beat to death comps and not one has ever effected how the bike started. Call Bob and he can make a change to the map and reload it .

I would bet my left nut it's the compensator. Yours were the same symptoms I had on mine. I replaced the compensator. Problem solved.

lowflight · « **Reply #47 on:** January 08, 2015, 06:00:24 PM »

Pretty easy to bet body parts when the problem is solved.

Make it interesting and bet them before hand er nut.

Author Topic: Help with my 120r (Read 12760 times)