Topic: '13 CVO Stage 3 ...... Low hp and bad mpg.....any ideas? (Read 12001 times)

daveinhouston · « **on:** March 23, 2015, 08:05:30 PM »

Hey Folks,
Looking for recommendations. Made the mistake of having the Harley Screaming 'EAGLE PRO TC 110 (1800 CC) STAGE 3 UPGRADE KIT, Kit Number 27548-10A. (101/2 to 1 SE pistons and SE-259E cams) on my Ultra a few weeks back and really disappointed with the results. . The bike is a 2013 CVO Ultra with around 11,000 miles on it. It has the stock CVO breather, Vance & Hines x-pipe header and Rinehart 4” slip-ons with the high flow baffles. They used the Screaming Eagle Super Tuner. I know they replaced the push rods…not sure on lifters. The bike is only making 105hp and 117tq. The really bad thing is that mpg has dropped to 32.....on a good day riding easy. I'm 62 so no hot rodder. The kit was advertised to make around 114hp. I can stand low hp but not with really bad mpg. Oh yeah, installed at San Jac Harley in Houston. Any thoughts on different cams, exhaust, etc.? Would like to be up in the 115 - 120 range with decent mpg. I should have left the thing stock!
Thanks,
Dave

CircleRacer · « **Reply #1 on:** March 24, 2015, 05:56:06 AM »

Call Steve at GMR Performance

Jswerve · « **Reply #2 on:** March 24, 2015, 06:28:09 AM »

Quote from: CircleRacer on March 24, 2015, 05:56:06 AM

Call Steve at GMR Performance

X2

daveinhouston · « **Reply #3 on:** March 24, 2015, 07:03:03 AM »

I sent him an email at his website.

Ridgerunr · « **Reply #4 on:** March 24, 2015, 08:07:03 AM »

Most likely the tune. Mufflers may not be helping, might consider Crusher muffs. Head pipe is good. GMR will get it tuned right.

Hogster · « **Reply #5 on:** March 24, 2015, 08:46:56 AM »

Quote from: CircleRacer on March 24, 2015, 05:56:06 AM

Call Steve at GMR Performance

I live in Houston too. I took my bike to Steve and got much better numbers. Here is a Dyno sheet showing the numbers my local dealer was able to get VS what Steve got. Huge difference!

2 ROSE · « **Reply #6 on:** March 24, 2015, 10:07:20 AM »

Quote from: Hogster on March 24, 2015, 08:46:56 AM

I live in Houston too. I took my bike to Steve and got much better numbers. Here is a Dyno sheet showing the numbers my local dealer was able to get VS what Steve got. Huge difference!

Boy I'll say...your local dealer needs to go back to dyno school.

Dr.D · « **Reply #7 on:** March 24, 2015, 11:55:53 AM »

I put the same kit on a CVO Fatbob at a local dealer and they got me 111hp and 120Tq with a Propipe and I am well pleased with mine. I would had it retuned and make sure the pipe and muffler are complementing the package. I still get close to 40mpg on this Dyna.

skratch · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2015, 01:14:45 PM »

Quote from: Hogster on March 24, 2015, 08:46:56 AM

I live in Houston too. I took my bike to Steve and got much better numbers. Here is a Dyno sheet showing the numbers my local dealer was able to get VS what Steve got. Huge difference!

this is with the same components? no hardware changes at all, just tuning? wow......

T-Roy · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2015, 01:21:16 PM »

Actually the chart posted above by hogster had other work that was done to it. Steve with GMR installed his 113 inch kit on it plus his .600 cams along with a 58MM throttle body. See the following thread:
http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=100936.0

grc · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2015, 01:21:51 PM »

Quote from: ekim60 on March 24, 2015, 01:14:45 PM

this is with the same components? no hardware changes at all, just tuning? wow......

I don't think so. Look at the description for each run at the bottom of the page, the higher run mentions 113, 600 cams,58mm TB, exhaust, etc.

Jerry

skratch · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2015, 02:19:24 PM »

yeah, i had just scanned the graph and noticed it said baseline, didn't catch the 110 reference. so its hard to say the dealer that did the original dyno is a pos, when the new dyno had a bunch of new components added as well. i would like to see a dyno, before and after, with no hardware changes.

not that i don't think gmr is a great shop. if i ever have any issues with my bike that esp won't cover, i'll be heading that way myself since its only about 4 hrs away. i just like to see apples to apples comparisons.

daveinhouston · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2015, 03:03:14 PM »

My dyno chart below. Max 105.72 hp and max torque 114.57. And the hp comes in late.

Dr.D · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2015, 04:00:02 PM »

That is WRONG! Get it to tuner before you spend a bunch of extra coin. If take it back to the dealer he may not be able to do any better.

daveinhouston · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2015, 04:22:18 PM »

I didn't have enough confidence in the dealer to take it back to them. I'm a pretty decent wrench myself and have built a lot of engines over the years. He was blowing smoke like I was a real dumbass. I guess I was. He tried to tell me that was the best he could do. Actually had good references on their Dyno tech but this is crap.

MadCVORG · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2015, 05:53:11 PM »

Yah, the 259E's should develop more power at lower RPMs, so as others have said, I'd suspect the tune was done improperly. I have a similar setup--different cams (close profile to the 259E)--with the 10.5 pistons, etc., and I get 116HP/122TQ, and average 38mpg. Time to find a competent tuner.

CVO2FIXUP · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2015, 06:31:40 PM »

After my build, the bike is fast as snot but I totally lost my millage. If I goose it up, or ride hard with the boys, I can get through a tank of gas in a blink. Killer gas monster.

daveinhouston · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2015, 07:34:55 PM »

I had a long talk with Steve at GMR. Going to go with his 113 kit. Wasted my money at the Harley shop but live and learn!

CircleRacer · « **Reply #18 on:** March 24, 2015, 07:38:38 PM »

Sorry to hear you have to start over that is a hard lesson But when you get your bike back this time you won't be able to stop smiling!!!

Hogster · « **Reply #19 on:** March 24, 2015, 08:32:18 PM »

Quote from: daveinhouston on March 24, 2015, 07:34:55 PM

I had a long talk with Steve at GMR. Going to go with his 113 kit. Wasted my money at the Harley shop but live and learn!

Dave, you will love Steve's work. Best $ I've spent. I can't stop grinning!

daveinhouston · « **Reply #20 on:** March 24, 2015, 08:37:22 PM »

I'm looking forward to having it built right. Went to the Harley shop thinking about maintaining the warranty when I should've been going to the right builder.

Rooster · « **Reply #21 on:** March 24, 2015, 09:18:21 PM »

Your bike will be in good hands now. Can't wait to hear you crow about it.

kojak · « **Reply #22 on:** March 24, 2015, 10:31:45 PM »

You said you're not a hot rodder. Do you ride 2 up most of the time, is that why you need more performance? The horsepower number is pretty irrelevant unless you ride your cvo like its a crotch rocket, on the other hand torque is what you really need, specially with the cam you have. 115 ft-lb of tq is pretty decent for most. With a better tune, you might be able to do a bit better.
"Would like to be up in the 115 - 120 range with decent mpg" I assume you are talking about horsepower at peak rpm, decent mileage will probably be in the mid to high thirties. You had your stock cvo engine upgraded to higher compression pistons, a cam that pulls harder on the low end (more torque and less hp) and had it dyno'd. Don't know if you had your heads reworked or changed your throttle body. Kinda going not much different from your stock configuration for performance changes. Before you dive into more major modifications, think about what is your riding style and what you really want. Dyno charts are nice to look at, good for bragging on forums and useless unless you understand what you want and get the right setup. Hope this helps and you don't keep spending $ that don't get you what you really wanted.

daveinhouston · « **Reply #23 on:** March 25, 2015, 07:37:27 AM »

All very good points Kojak. Wise actually. Unfortunately for me I haven't always made wise choices when it comes to motorcycles.......or women! I normally ride alone. We go to Sturgis most years and my wife rides with me then. I actually wasn't terribly dissatisfied with the "seat of the pants" feel of the bike after the build, even though the chart looked so bad. It was the horrendous mpg that prompted me to do something about it. I suspect a cam change, exhaust change and retune would have got the bike in a much better place.
I'm not a hot rodder but I do like having plenty of roll-on power. And I have to admit there are bragging rights with the guys I ride with around who has the most hp. Stupid I know but true. Especially for someone whose 62 years old and been riding for fifty years. But after all those years a hard pulling Harley under me still puts a smile on my face!
What convinced me with Steve were his discussions around boring the cylinders to 113ci; not so much for volume as to true up the cylinders. I used to build engines many years ago and we did the same thing. Another issue was finding a good dyno tuner. You'd think in a town the size of Houston there'd be several. There may be but I couldn't find one. The guy who did mine was touted to be the best in town.

skratch · « **Reply #24 on:** March 25, 2015, 08:21:01 AM »

Quote from: daveinhouston on March 25, 2015, 07:37:27 AM

The guy who did mine was touted to be the best in town.

aren't they all?

Dr.D · « **Reply #25 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:15:14 AM »

Dave I know for certain that build of yours could be made much better with a proper tune but that GMR build will be better-er. Buying and modifying Harleys has nothing to do with wisdom or fiscal sense it is pure unadulterated passion. Same as women.

It's your money so do as you wish just make sure you enjoy it. Remember money only does you good when you get rid of it.

ultrarider123 · « **Reply #26 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:24:25 AM »

Quote from: daveinhouston on March 24, 2015, 07:34:55 PM

I had a long talk with Steve at GMR. Going to go with his 113 kit. Wasted my money at the Harley shop but live and learn!

When I get ready for some motor work, my first call will be to Steve. Not only am I impressed with his discussion here on the site, I've seen his work and talked with the folks that swear by him. There are some good tuners/builders out there but Steve and GMR would be at the top of my short list of folks that I'd trust. The others on that list? All contributers and vendors here on the site....shows what good word of mouth advertising will getcha....

GMR-PERFORMANCE · « **Reply #27 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:44:26 AM »

Well the power that he got from all that money was nothing more than what most get with a cam swap alone. Results do vary with pipe and what a stock head will flow. But the kit he has and how it was built in my opinion is incorrect. The idea that its ok to ball hone a cylinder for a performance build with a less than stellar piston to wall clearance to start with . Is not going to end well. The 259 cam is a ok cam if you have enough CI and compression to support it. Its all about the sum of parts working together in harmony that will deliver the final product. And I am looking forward to building the next 113 kit for Dave.

kojak · « **Reply #28 on:** March 25, 2015, 06:35:38 PM »

"It was the horrendous mpg that prompted me to do something about it. I suspect a cam change, exhaust change and retune would have got the bike in a much better place. "
Good luck with your project Dave! I also have 41 years and about 625k miles in the saddle so far:) Spent about 15 years of those in the 80's/90's riding crotch rockets exclusively including an insane Kaw 750GPZ Turbo. Before I switched to Harley's exclusively about fifteen years ago, my favorite bikes were the Yamaha FJ/FJR series sports tourers. Had to switch because I was always pulling over to the side of the road waiting for my buddies on the hogs to catch up to me and I wasn't trying to outrun them, funny...Now I am one of the old geezers on a road glide, go figure!

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #29 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:02:01 PM »

Here is my CVO King, 259E cam, 10.5 HD pistons, Head work By Dewy, compression set for 10.8 to 1, HPI 55mm throttle body, 5.1 injectors, woods lifters, and Fullsac DX head pipe with 2.25 baffles. I average 45mpg on the Hwy. Range is 240~260 on a tank. My best was 48 mpg.

daveinhouston · « **Reply #30 on:** March 25, 2015, 09:19:29 PM »

Quote from: FLSTFI Dave on March 25, 2015, 09:02:01 PM

Here is my CVO King, 259E cam, 10.5 HD pistons, Head work By Dewy, compression set for 10.8 to 1, HPI 55mm throttle body, 5.1 injectors, woods lifters, and Fullsac DX head pipe with 2.25 baffles. I average 45mpg on the Hwy. Range is 240~260 on a tank. My best was 48 mpg.

Those are really good numbers on hp, tq and mpg Dave. I was hoping for something similar with mine. I would have been okay with mpg in the high thirties. Generally if an engine is built right it'll be more efficient and get decent mpg, unless it's a screamer and you dog it.

FLSTFI Dave · « **Reply #31 on:** March 26, 2015, 08:53:52 PM »

Quote from: daveinhouston on March 25, 2015, 09:19:29 PM

Those are really good numbers on hp, tq and mpg Dave. I was hoping for something similar with mine. I would have been okay with mpg in the high thirties. Generally if an engine is built right it'll be more efficient and get decent mpg, unless it's a screamer and you dog it.

A Friend and I built the motor, had the head work done. Then had Doc in FL tune it. I believe the good numbers and MPG are a direct result of Doc Tuning the bike. He spends several hours tuning, and does a much better job than a dealer. Torque really should have been a bit higher on my bike. I feel it was due to the packing blew all the way to the back of the mufflers and did not know it. Friend has the same build, and has 3.5 more foot pounds of torque and the same HP. I now have screens to hold packing where it belongs so I think it would do a little better.

GRam · « **Reply #32 on:** May 13, 2015, 03:11:18 PM »

Quote from: daveinhouston on March 24, 2015, 03:03:14 PM

My dyno chart below. Max 105.72 hp and max torque 114.57. And the hp comes in late.

Looks virtually identical to mine!
Swapped out to Tman 625. Pulls TONS better down low, but kind of lays down up top above 5200
Overall it's a much better riding bike. First road trip of year coming up this weekend, see how mpg's do,,

daveinhouston · « **Reply #33 on:** August 04, 2015, 09:04:58 AM »

Got the bike back from Steve at GMR and couldn't be happier. 125 hp and 130 tq. In Sturgis and put 300 miles on it yesterday and got 44 mpg. I know you always get better mpg up here than in Houston but that's still great. Bike pulls very hard. Thanks Steve!

FlaHeatWave · « **Reply #34 on:** August 04, 2015, 11:38:12 AM »

Steve has those 113s figured out

Pan1 · « **Reply #35 on:** August 18, 2015, 09:29:48 PM »

Same kit installed on my 210 CVO Ultra. 102 hp and 110 tq 35 mpg two up. Part throttle response is awesome but motor is always on the edge of detonation so a little bit of race gas is used to controll it. Many hours of Dyno time to get it as good as it is. It may be the VH X pipe contributing to the poor performance.

Author Topic: '13 CVO Stage 3 ...... Low hp and bad mpg.....any ideas? (Read 12001 times)

ultrarider123