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[VaEagle]

This poll is to go along with the one by Hoist about muffler choices.
I know there may not be a simple answer to this question but there is so much info posted all around it can be hard to try and choose a setup.
I am using this premise as a baseline:
Looking at a 103" engine with no internal mods such as cams. on an touring bike.Along with the final choice of head pipes there would be a tuner (PC or SERT),free flowing air cleaner setup such as K&N w/SE (Or other back plate.) As well as a more open exhaust compaired to stock.
From postings I have read, some of the pros and cons of each type :

1.Stock pipes save money and are a good compromise for torque and horsepower settings at low and mid ranges. Negative is they are bad for the heat issues to the rider and rear cylinder.

2. A Two into One setup gives the best low and midrange torque but can have a power dip in midrange. (Thunderheader) Not sure about D&D or others? Also not sure how they compare to stock at heat disipation for rider and rear cylinder.I am sure the left side would be cooler.

3. True Dual head pipes are best for maximum horsepower at higher rpms but can loose some torque in lower ranges but the torque comes on strong at higher rpms. I also have read where true duals disipate heat the best and they make it easier to tune the cylinders individually.

Please feel free to fill in my blanks and correct any misconceptions I have posted.
Thanks for your input.

[Twolanerider]

My choice has always been for true duals; but for reasons that would really be none of the above.

[hd-dude]

Got to agree with Don on this, true duals belong on the baggers! The opened up right side and balance from the back of the bike win hands down in the looks dept. For what its worth Erniezap and I have almost exact setups except he has the thunder header. Are numbers are almost identical. Both of our dyno sheets can be seen here:

[geezerglide]

My vote is for 2:1. Currently running V&H Pro Pipe on my JIMs 120.. Previous on my SE 103 had the True Dual Freedom Cycle Rhineharts Setup (still for sale).

I am contemplating on trying the 2:1 Supertrapp Super Meg.

I don't mind the look of 2:1 on a bagger.

geezerglide

[speedfreek]

A 2-1 pipe will offer the best all round performance, particularly on a bagger.  It's a heavy bike and the average rider will cruise in the 2200-3000 rpm range, so low end IS important.  If you like the dual look, most offer a false pipe for the left side.

[skyglide]

I like the 2:1 setup from my D&D Fatcats on the 110". Great fit and finish.Sound and performance second to none. Putting on ghost pipe today. Could not get used to only right side pipe look.[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[JDOFLHRIDER]

They didn't make pipes to fit my seuc when i picked it up so i put kerker slip-on's and it sounded great and run good,had nice dyno numbers.I just didn't like the lil noises the heat shields made.so i went to the D&D fatcats.this time dyno numbers better yet and rideability alot better.Fit and finish is great and I like the 2:1 setup from my D&D Fatcats on the 110". Great fit and finish.Sound and performance second to none. Put on ghost pipe couple days ago. Could not get used to only right side pipe look.

[VaEagle]

Gee not too many opinions or interest in headers so far? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

I guess mufflers, A/C,tuners and cams more important?

[RedDevil]

Gee not too many opinions or interest in headers so far? [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

I guess mufflers, A/C,tuners and cams more important?

I have the V&H  duals on my B&O  [smiley=jester.gif] and really like them.  I also put the V&H oval mufflers on.  I really like the performance and sound of this setup (see my signature for the rest of the setup).  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]  I haven't had it dyno'd yet, but I don't notice any low-end problems as far as torque and run-on power, but then again the 110 is lightyears more powerful than the 88 I had.  This motor has "stump-pulling" torque.  I was cruising at about 2000 rpm in 6th and decided to open it up and see what kind of torque it had and WOW, it pulled like there was no tomorrow, and supposedly, low-end rpm in sixth gear is the worse combination.  It impressed me, that's all I can say.  But then again, maybe I impress easily.   [smiley=nixweiss.gif]
Red

[SPIDERMAN]

Seeing as how this thread is asking for opinions I'll offer mine. I always tell folks who don't want to do anything more than a basic Stage I upgrade to stick with their stock head pipes and buy a set of slip-ons. Lots of different ones out there. If you're doing a stage II upgrade then a set of true duals is the best bet although again using the stock head pipes and a set of slip ons works fine if you're not looking to get the most out of what you do. Lastly, if you're into a full blown I wanna be the big dog on my street Stage III build, then the best bet is a 2 into 1 system. A handful of companies have recognized that bagger folks like the dual exhaust look and offer dummy left side pipes.

Here's a few things I've heard along the way that may or may not be true. If you want to debate these go ahead, but I did not claim these to be true, I'm only passing on things I've heard.

Screamin Eagle stage combinations work better if you use Screamin Eagle slip-ons. Thunderheader slip-ons with stock head pipes are actually better on baggers with torque builds than some true duals. The best head pipes to use are Bassani, so even if you want to use another brand of muffler, go with the Bassani head pipes. Basanni makes the best 2 into 1 system for a really Hi-Po motor. (Dave Mackie recommends Bassani) I personally debate the last one where V-Rods are concerned. IMO the ONLY 2 into 1 for a V-Rod is a Thunderheader.

Big B

[greglyon]

I prefer the 2 into 1 and currently use the Thunderheader.  The heat generated is a problem that I solved with heat wrap.  I agree that the bike loses a bit in the mid and upper range but that is not a priority for me.  Factor in riding style before making your final decision.  

[VaEagle]

I got some interesting feedback from Vance and Hines tech support and also S&S tech support about pipes.I asked whether to stay with stock or go with true duals,also about air cleaner and tuner.I told them I wanted to decrease heat but try to have good low and mid range torque.
Using an internally stock 2006 CVO Ultra as a starting point this is what they suggested.

Vance and Hines tech support person Mr.Oscar Burgarin stated " I would keep your stock head pipes and put ovals on. You'll get about 5 to 6 horsepower out of it and about 3 to 4 ft.lbs of torque.As for ground clearance you should have no problem at all. I would recommend the power commander for the type of set up you have they have been around for a long time.Great product."

When asked the same questions S&S tech instructor Tom Hampton stated "It is recommended to upgrade to a hi-flow air cleaner kit at the same time.You will need to adjust you fuel ratio slightly and could most likely get by with a stage 1 download. The mufflers will not decrease your cornering ability."In a follow up reply Mr. Hampton stated "Stay with the stock header. People like the look of the true duals but they really do not perform better, although they are less susceptible to deceleration popping out the pipes."

So it seems that both Vance and Hines as well as S&S tech support prefer a stock header setup on an internally stock 103"?

[Chief]

I got some interesting feedback from Vance and Hines tech support and also S&S tech support about pipes.I asked whether to stay with stock or go with true duals,also about air cleaner and tuner.I told them I wanted to decrease heat but try to have good low and mid range torque.
Using an internally stock 2006 CVO Ultra as a starting point this is what they suggested.

Vance and Hines tech support person Mr.Oscar Burgarin stated " I would keep your stock head pipes and put ovals on. You'll get about 5 to 6 horsepower out of it and about 3 to 4 ft.lbs of torque.As for ground clearance you should have no problem at all. I would recommend the power commander for the type of set up you have they have been around for a long time.Great product."

When asked the same questions S&S tech instructor Tom Hampton stated "It is recommended to upgrade to a hi-flow air cleaner kit at the same time.You will need to adjust you fuel ratio slightly and could most likely get by with a stage 1 download. The mufflers will not decrease your cornering ability."In a follow up reply Mr. Hampton stated "Stay with the stock header. People like the look of the true duals but they really do not perform better, although they are less susceptible to deceleration popping out the pipes."

So it seems that both Vance and Hines as well as S&S tech support prefer a stock header setup on an internally stock 103"?

[Hoist!]

I got some interesting feedback from Vance and Hines tech support and also S&S tech support about pipes.I asked whether to stay with stock or go with true duals,also about air cleaner and tuner.I told them I wanted to decrease heat but try to have good low and mid range torque.
Using an internally stock 2006 CVO Ultra as a starting point this is what they suggested.

Vance and Hines tech support person Mr.Oscar Burgarin stated " I would keep your stock head pipes and put ovals on. You'll get about 5 to 6 horsepower out of it and about 3 to 4 ft.lbs of torque.As for ground clearance you should have no problem at all. I would recommend the power commander for the type of set up you have they have been around for a long time.Great product."

When asked the same questions S&S tech instructor Tom Hampton stated "It is recommended to upgrade to a hi-flow air cleaner kit at the same time.You will need to adjust you fuel ratio slightly and could most likely get by with a stage 1 download. The mufflers will not decrease your cornering ability."In a follow up reply Mr. Hampton stated "Stay with the stock header. People like the look of the true duals but they really do not perform better, although they are less susceptible to deceleration popping out the pipes."

So it seems that both Vance and Hines as well as S&S tech support prefer a stock header setup on an internally stock 103"?

[BLM777]

S&S has been touting the benefits of factory crossover from a performance standpoint for years. I don't believe that they address the heat issue. To me, eliminating the extra hot piping under your butt has to reject this heat elsewhere, and not evenly for each cylinder. You're not necessarily running a cooler exhaust temp from the engine. You are directing it rearward instead, away from your butt. You also evenly distribute the exhaust from each cylinder directly. Do people who have only installed slip-ons w/ stock headpipes (with A/C and ECM mods) also have heat issues? If so, TD's seem to make sense. I'd be interested to hear about the heat issue specific to this. With only these 2 things done are TD headpipes really necessary? Great, more questions! Thanks.

[Hoist!]

Anytime the factory crossover is used you'll have a very hot butt with the rear cylinder temps running considerably higher than the front.

[grc]

.................................................................................. [highlight]Do people who have only installed slip-ons w/ stock headpipes (with A/C and ECM mods) also have heat issues?[/highlight] If so, TD's seem to make sense. I'd be interested to hear about the heat issue specific to this. With only these 2 things done are TD headpipes really necessary? Great, more questions! Thanks.

[Hoist!]

Hoist,

First, no matter what exhaust system you use the rear jug will run hotter than the front, due to air flow.

[DHTDHT]

I'm sure there are those who know more about exhaust than I, but it was my impression that the cross-over was simply a means to allow each cylinder to make use of both mufflers, thereby reducing the resistance and improving flow. It allows us to use smallish diameter mufflers instead of one great big one (as in a 2 into 1 system).  When choosing between a 2 into 2 with crossover versus a 2 into 1, I thought it boiled down to personal preference of style more than anything else.  Can someone correct me, if I have the wrong impression on this?

True duals look great because they have no cross-over.  They also do not contaminate one cylinder's discharge with the other's intake from back pressure.  Unfortunately, there is no true dual system (that I know of) that is sold OEM on the bike, since they are too loud, not being able to utilize the cross-over to breathe into two mufflers. When I read the recent post about Harley OEM mufflers not breathing equally, it made no sense to me.  Perhaps someone here can explain if that is indeed the case, and if so, why?

I think Harley has done an incredibly good job of creating an OEM cross-over exhaust system that is of high quality construction, breathes reasonably well, and is not overly quiet.

[mavrik]

Exhaust pipes... please try this site http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/index.htm
If you want the best performance along with good sound and quality then this is it.
I out on a LSR 2 into 1 prostock 2" c style and gained 10 hp and YES 19 ft lbs of torque..
The 1 3/4" would have produced even more torque...
I think you will be impressed with the site and the info

Mavrik

[Hoist!]

Exhaust pipes... please try this site http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/index.htm
If you want the best performance along with good sound and quality then this is it.
I out on a LSR 2 into 1 prostock 2" c style and gained 10 hp and YES 19 ft lbs of torque..
The 1 3/4" would have produced even more torque...
I think you will be impressed with the site and the info

Mavrik

Thanks Mav. I've always loved their 2>1. After I burnout my Supretrapp, it's going on my Pro Street. It's nice on the Springer. But I don't want it on my touring bike. I't's too loud for all day trips. I like a dual exhaust on a dresser. Seems like I'm using V&H TD's at that. I also plan on using S&S SPO Slip-ons. Did you do aything else besides pipes? What ECM Mod? Thanks. Hoist!

[BLM777]

Hoist,

First, no matter what exhaust system you use the rear jug will run hotter than the front, due to air flow.

[Twolanerider]

A great investment for those concerned about the heat issues is the purchase of an infrared thermometer for about $70.

[BLM777]

The really good ones that measure within a 1/2 degree of accuracy down low also can also be a lot of fun pointing at different places on a young lady's........ um......; never mind.

Man....where were you with these ideas when I needed you...... [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[Twolanerider]

Man....where were you with these ideas when I needed you...... [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Brian, sometimes technology truly is a wonderful thing.

[Midnight Rider]

The really good ones that measure within a 1/2 degree of accuracy down low also can also be a lot of fun pointing at different places on a young lady's........ um......; never mind.

I've always preferred measuring those temps manually...

I've noticed a big difference on my right leg, back of the thigh heat sensor since installing the TD RH's, and not a corresponding increase on the left...I'm sure that there is more heat ON the left side now, but my left leg does not feel any more than when the crossover was there.  Of course, it hasn't been 95 degrees lately either.

[Hoist!]

I've always preferred measuring those temps manually...

I've noticed a big difference on my right leg, back of the thigh heat sensor since installing the TD RH's, and not a corresponding increase on the left...I'm sure that there is more heat ON the left side now, but my left leg does not feel any more than when the crossover was there.

[Twolanerider]

I've always preferred measuring those temps manually...

I've noticed a big difference on my right leg, back of the thigh heat sensor since installing the TD RH's, and not a corresponding increase on the left...I'm sure that there is more heat ON the left side now, but my left leg does not feel any more than when the crossover was there.

[ESJ JESTER]

Isn't that a new POCO song? from the Big Sky albumn

[Twolanerider]

Isn't that a new POCO song? from the Big Sky albumn

What's a POCO  [smiley=nixweiss.gif] ?

[BLM777]

I've always preferred measuring those temps manually...

I've noticed a big difference on my right leg, back of the thigh heat sensor since installing the TD RH's, and not a corresponding increase on the left...I'm sure that there is more heat ON the left side now, but my left leg does not feel any more than when the crossover was there.

[ESJ JESTER]

a bunch of old guys from montana still singin after 40 yrs   saw em last year actually its Bareback at big sky

[Midnight Rider]

Sure hope you're not working today TC....heard it was going to hit the low 70's in Guntersville today.

[BLM777]

Brian, sometimes technology truly is a wonderful thing.

Nope, technology or your idea turned out to be counterproductive.  I got a negative reading on the meter when my bride asked what I was doing with "that gadget" at the lunch table.....

[BLM777]

a bunch of old guys from montana still singin after 40 yrs

[Twolanerider]

Nope, technology or your idea turned out to be counterproductive.

[BLM777]

Brian, like all new technologies introduction is crucial.

[Twolanerider]

Probably is Don....I try again in about a month.......

oh, you poor man    

[smiley=huepfenlol2.gif] [smiley=drink.gif]

[Fired00d]

The really good ones that measure within a 1/2 degree of accuracy down low also can also be a lot of fun pointing at different places on a young lady's........ um......; never mind.

You mean you don't use the "checking to see if pasta is done technique"?? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Twolanerider]

You mean you don't use the "checking to see if pasta is done technique"?? [smiley=nixweiss.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

heat gun, pasta; yeah, used them both

[Fired00d]

heat gun, pasta; yeah, used them both

[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Twolanerider]

[smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

but not at the same time (at least that I can remember)  [smiley=drink.gif]

[HUBBARD]

Just to throw in some Hillbilly Engineering, the most economical, and practical performance enhancement for a stock engine, whether it be 88, 95, 103, or 110 cu. in., is SE, or Super-Trapp slip-ons, and a Bow-Tie small block freeze plug inserted in the left curvature of the of the Y-pipe, with a 5/32 hole drilled in the middle of it.  You keep the Duals, but you have a 2 into 1 exhaust, with minimal expense.  There endeth the lesson.  Later--HUBBARD    

[Hoist!]

Just to throw in some Hillbilly Engineering, the most economical, and practical performance enhancement for a stock engine, whether it be 88, 95, 103, or 110 cu. in., is SE, or Super-Trapp slip-ons, and a Bow-Tie small block freeze plug inserted in the left curvature of the of the Y-pipe, with a 5/32 hole drilled in the middle of it.

[Midnight Rider]

But if you look real close at Maudie, she's got black tips

And it's a stock   bike, too....

[Hoist!]

But if you look real close at Maudie, she's got black tips

And it's a stock

[HUBBARD]

Yeah Terry, I know about his stock 120" Hillbilly Rocket Rider bike. What's that, an FLHHRRSE?

[HUBBARD]

Thanks Hubbard. From what I've heard about your ride, that Hillbilly Engineering does pretty damn good. Yours is one bike I'm lookin' forward to checking out. I'ved used the Supertrapp slip-ons on my other RK's and still have them. They're a little ratty now. I got 'em in '96. I've heard these S&S's perform pretty good too and wanted to try them. I've heard that before about the freeze plug. Maybe I'll think about trying that old freeze plug routine before buying the TD's. I haven't heard anyone talk about that in awhile. You have a base map for them?

[SBB]

Naw, Man!

[SBB]

Hey Hub

How bout a run down to Shatley Springs on Sunday?

 [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

[Fired00d]

But if you look real close at Maudie, she's got black tips

And it's a stock

[Hoist!]

Yea, a stock [highlight]rocket[/highlight]. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

 Posted on: Today at 4:53pm
Quote from HUBBARD on Today at 4:44pm:


Naw, Man!

[djkak]

Just to throw in some Hillbilly Engineering, the most economical, and practical performance enhancement for a stock engine, whether it be 88, 95, 103, or 110 cu. in., is SE, or Super-Trapp slip-ons, and a Bow-Tie small block freeze plug inserted in the left curvature of the of the Y-pipe, with a 5/32 hole drilled in the middle of it.

[HUBBARD]

Hey Hub

How bout a run down to Shatley Springs on Sunday?

 [smiley=nixweiss.gif]

That would be great, but we have two obstacles to contend with.  (1) They're closed for the winter.  (2)  All that salt dust is on the roads.  Not good.  Appreciate the thought, though.  It would be a great day for a ride.  We'll have to postpone until next year there, Dad.  Merry Christmas to you and Nancy.  Later--HUBBARD

[SBB]

That would be great, but we have two obstacles to contend with.

[Screamin_Beagle]

Been outta town for a while,  this topic may be done,  but my vote goes to Hooker....be careful,  they make systems for 95" and below and 96" and above so buy the right pipes.  The reason I like the hookers is the performance.  I have true duals,  and both pipes  are pinched down to the torque setting (yes,  that's right.....on a 800 lb bike....with my big a$$ sitting on it,  I want ALL the torque I can get).  HP is measured at an RPM level where you (or I ) don't ride.  Big Bike....make torque....Look at the Hookers or E-Series or VH..........that's the way to go.
JMHO


_Beagle

[SPIDERMAN]

Been outta town for a while,

[VaEagle]

Wow didn't realize how close the poll would be, 2 into 1 at 19 now and the true duals at 19 also! 8-) Stock is at 10.

[kojak]

To simplify things,
1. All other factors being equal, a more restrictive exhaust will help lower end torque, hurt hp at higher rpm. This could be crossover headers, more restrictive baffles etc. Way to overcome this is to improve the combustion process at lower rpm ranges hence the tuning issues. Having a closed loop EFI system with O2 sensors provides more flexibility.
2. A lean running engine will run hot! Again tuning is a great way to help with that.
Having the same bike set up with a true dual, ac and a efi tuning device (PC3, SERT, Whatever) and then with slipons mounted to stock headers and tuned by someone who knows on the same equipment and I bet the difference in TQ/HP will be insignicant.

[kojak]

To add to the whole performance, exhaust/efi/ac/cam discussion:
Since the EFI computes the exact amount of fuel required for a specific engine RPM and load on the engine, changes to the exhaust system, air filter, camshaft(s) or other engine components, will need to alter the fuel map.
As you modify your engine, the amount of air that can enter each cylinder is changed. This increase in air into the cylinders (Volumetric Efficiency) is the reason to add more fuel. If fuel map changes were not made, you would end up with a lean running engine(HOT). There are 3 basic ways to alter HD EFI fuel maps.
(1) Piggy Back computers
Power Commander
Generally used with:
 Intake upgrades, exhaust upgrades, Cam changes, Internal engine upgrades
The PowerCommander is able to change  the factory AFR by altering sensor signals to the OEM ECU. This relatively simple strategy allows a great deal of flexibility when it comes to creating better fuel maps for modified engines. These packages allow you to compensate for a wide variety of engine components.
The OEM fuel map is never changed. All the PowerCommander does is "fool" the factory ECU into altering the amount of fuel the engine gets. Creating custom fuel maps requires a personal computer, and a certain amount of knowledge of EFI and PowerCommander software.
 
(2)Pulse Extender
 SE Race Fueler
TFI by Techlusion

Used commonly with:
 Intake upgrades, exhaust upgrades Cam changes, minor internal engine upgrades
The TFI can be best described as a pulse extender. It allows the fuel injectors to stay open longer, thus providing more fuel to the engine. The TFI does not require a personal computer or any special equipment to tune the engine. All you need is a screwdriver to adjust 4 variable resistors. Anyone who is familiar with tuning carburetors will feel comfortable tuning the TFI.
The simplicity of the TFI is also a disadvantage. Its ability to alter the fuel curve is limited to richening the OEM fuel curve
 
(3) Engine Management Software (EMS) packages
 SE Race Tuner
Used with:
All street or race engines with any level of modifications
 Engine Management Software allows you to modify all operating parameters in the ECU. In most modern EFI systems, the ECU controls the fuel and the ignition. The ability to alter fuel curves, ignition curves, rev limiters and other engine parameters is the ultimate for fine tuning a performance engine.
 These packages tend to be expensive and very complex. In many cases the EMS packages may have some "canned" engine combinations predefined to help the user. But like the Chip Upgrades, these canned engine combinations assume that your components match their list of parts.

Despite these issue, Engine Management Software is the best way to upgrade an existing OEM ECU. Devices like the PowerCommander and TFI will never be able to give the required control over the EFI and Ignition systems.
 
More info at www.nightrider.com/biketech

[HogBreath]

Wel,, I'm going to have my bike tuned. I think I need to change exhaust before I do. SO, I read this thread. I've got a headached and we have a tie between TD's and 2:1. HERE's some Hilbilly scientific $$it for ya.

Last fall I layed my leg against the exhaust and burned a circle the size of a Hickey you'd get in High school on prom night. I left my leg there just as long as it takes to feel the heat through one pair of Levi jeans. Right below that is a scar from laying my ankle on the exhaust pipe of a Honda 1300 wearing shorts. That scar is about the size of a ping pong ball. Of course, I didn't leave my leg there as long as I did on the harley pipe, BUT, I also didn't have the protection of the levis. Does this tell me the Harley runs hotter than the Honda?

OK, forget everything I wrote. Do I go for:

1) Thunderheaders with a dummy on the left side like my tuner and 1/2 of you suggests? OR?

2) TRue duals like 1/2 of you suggest?

No need to take a vote, it'd be 19-19.

[Fired00d]

Wel,, I'm going to have my bike tuned. I think I need to change exhaust before I do. SO, I read this thread. I've got a headached and we have a tie between TD's and 2:1. HERE's some Hilbilly scientific $$it for ya.

Last fall I layed my leg against the exhaust and burned a circle the size of a Hickey you'd get in High school on prom night. I left my leg there just as long as it takes to feel the heat through one pair of Levi jeans. Right below that is a scar from laying my ankle on the exhaust pipe of a Honda 1300 wearing shorts. That scar is about the size of a ping pong ball. Of course, I didn't leave my leg there as long as I did on the harley pipe, BUT, I also didn't have the protection of the levis. Does this tell me the Harley runs hotter than the Honda?

OK, forget everything I wrote. Do I go for:

1) Thunderheaders with a dummy on the left side like my tuner and 1/2 of you suggests? OR?

2) TRue duals like 1/2 of you suggest?

No need to take a vote, it'd be 19-19.

Thunderheader will be EXTREMELY loud!!! Also (what I've heard) the chrome isn't the best, and at the end of the pipe were the reversion cone is it will always look sooty/dirty.

If I were stuck on a 2 into 1 I would go with the D&D Fat Cat w/a falsie.

For true duals I would go w/Rineharts (like I have and love them).

One other note.... Wear long pants when you ride it's easier on the legs when you touch the pipes.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[HogBreath]

Seriously, After reading what I see here, I'm thinking true duals myself. Seems it'd run cooler and look better. I just can't see this bike with a 2:1 although I'm sure it'll be ok. I don't think I want it THAT loud. I want it louder than the stock pipes, but not so loud I can't hear the stereo. I agree. This tuner I'm using has the rhineharts in stock.

Yes, Shorts aren't the wise way to ride. I haven't always been the wise man I am now.

Thanks for the input.

[RedDevil]

Seriously, After reading what I see here, I'm thinking true duals myself. Seems it'd run cooler and look better. I just can't see this bike with a 2:1 although I'm sure it'll be ok. I don't think I want it THAT loud. I want it louder than the stock pipes, but not so loud I can't hear the stereo. I agree. This tuner I'm using has the rhineharts in stock.

Yes, Shorts aren't the wise way to ride. I haven't always been the wise man I am now.

Thanks for the input.

HB,
I hate to do this, but, as you can see opinions on what to get vary as much as the individuals that ride the bikes.  I have the V&H true duals and V&H ovals, and absolutely love the looks and the sound of them.  I would recommend, if you can, before you buy anything, try to hear what they sound like on a bike.  I was very fortunate because I was torn between the Rineharts (which like d00d said are great) and the Vance and Hines Ovals.  I got to listen to them literally side by side at my dealership before I decided.  They had two bikes fitted with both setups and had both setups in stock.  Both were the same price installed, and they both looked great to me, (although I do have to admit now, that the ovals strike me as being nicer looking mufflers).  So it boiled down to sound for me...the Vance and Hines won out for me because to my ears, they had more of the "Harley sound" and the Rineharts were a tad louder, which at idle wasn't to bad but when they ran the bikes up to about 3000 rpms, it was noticeable.  So I went with the Vance and Hines.  
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[FLHRSE3]

Red

Sometime when your bored and just out admiring your ride would you do me a favor and take a quick approximation measurement of the size of the oval.  In some pictures it appears to be about 2x4 others 3x4, I

[HogBreath]

I appreciate that Red! I almost sorta got my mind set on thinking about which one to maybe ponder about considering.

[FLHRSE3]

I appreciate that Red! [highlight]I almost sorta got my mind set on thinking about which one to maybe ponder about considering[/highlight].

Hogbreath

Those are my sentiments exactly, I can

[SPIDERMAN]

Hogbreath

Those are my sentiments exactly, I can

[RedDevil]

Red

Sometime when your bored and just out admiring your ride would you do me a favor and take a quick approximation measurement of the size of the oval.

[RedDevil]

I appreciate that Red! I almost sorta got my mind set on thinking about which one to maybe ponder about considering.

HB,
Yeah, I kinda sorta thought that you thought that maybe you were definitely maybe but not completely certain of which direction you might possibly or possibly not go.

[FLHRSE3]

Red

Thanks for the info, they are bigger than I anticipated but that is good to hear since I find that I really like the looks of the stock 4

[FLHRSE3]

Spiderman

Good advice, thanks.

[SPIDERMAN]

Spiderman

Good advice, thanks.

[RedDevil]

Red

Thanks for the info, they are bigger than I anticipated but that is good to hear since I find that I really like the looks of the stock 4

[EZRIDN]

Spiderman

Good advice, thanks.

[HogBreath]

OK,

My thought process over the last couple of weeks has confused me even, but here is a summary.

1) I had NO desire to spend ANYTHING else on my bike until Joining this site. My wife thanks you guys. NOT!

2) I want to have my bike tuned.

3) If I'm going to have my bike tuned, I need more air on the intake.

4) If I'm going to have it tuned, and increase air, I want to change the exhaust, 2:1, true duals, etc.

5) If I'm going to tune the bike, I will need a Power commander, or a SERT or XYZ. I decided a week or more ago, from reading on this site, Use whichever system your tuner is most comfortable with.

As of last Friday here's where I was:

Although I trust my dealer and I think he's got a great mechanic, he does not have a Dyno.  I heard of a fellow in North mississippi, just south of Memphis, that owns a performance shop and has a Dyno. I gave him a call and he recommends the following.

1) Power commander. He claims he almost knows what to do before he even starts, Dyno time, cost of the power commander, Installed ready to go is $625, reasonable enough. He almost refuses to tune a SERT because of the Dyno time involved. He claims Dyno time could be as much as $1500 plus the cost of the SERT. YIKES!

2) K&N high flow air filter

3) 2:1 Thunder Header or whatever exhaust I'd want. He claims more HP and torque from this set up.

I wasn't convinced on the Thunderheader. I want the bike to sound like a Harley, but, not so loud it drives people nuts. I want to keep my neighbors happy too. Hoist gave me a call Friday night, and he says the same thing. Even though he talks faster than I can think I agree with him. HP and torque isn't ALL we're interested in. This is a tour bike, I want to be able to hear the radio. Although I liked what this guy from Mississippi had to say, I decided to think on it. I went to the Easy rider show in Memphis Saturday, and decided to see what I find there.

I went by Memphis Bumpus HD before the show Saturday. I didn't buy my bike from them, so, I'm a little cautious of expecting a dealer to welcome me with open arms.  I talked with a Brent Nichols of Memphis HD and I've never been treated as graciously in my life. He bent over backwards giving me advice and helping me. After talking with them I've decided to use them as my tuner. SO, here's where I'm at today.

1) Use Bumpus of HD. They use the HD SERT. The cost of the SERT and Dyno time is a little higher than the other guy with a PC but, I think i'd rather use a certified HD shop.

2) I've already got V&H slip ons. I'll order V&H pipes and use my slip-ons.

3) K&N Air filter.

Now, I've got one more decision. While I'm going to the expense of tuning, Dyno time, and traveling to Memphis (150 miles) Should I go ahead and install 575 cams now? I feel that sooner or later, I'll want to do that. WHY not go ahead and do it all at once. The expense is going to be there, either now or later. Why not go ahead and enjoy it now? But then again, How much HP and torque do I need? Would cams, if done right, lead to down time, , maintenance issues, and breaking down on the side of the road? If so, I don't want to do it. I will say, there was a 04 or 05 yellow SEEG there and it sounded AWESOME. Someone make up my mind for me.

[Fired00d]

..........

Now, I've got one more decision. While I'm going to the expense of tuning, Dyno time, and traveling to Memphis (150 miles) Should I go ahead and install 575 cams now? I feel that sooner or later, I'll want to do that. WHY not go ahead and do it all at once. The expense is going to be there, either now or later. Why not go ahead and enjoy it now? But then again, How much HP and torque do I need? Would cams, if done right, lead to down time, , maintenance issues, and breaking down on the side of the road? If so, I don't want to do it. I will say, there was a 04 or 05 yellow SEEG there and it sounded AWESOME. Someone make up my mind for me.

The 575 cams were designed specifically for the 103 motor that came in the CVO's. I would not use these cams in a 110ci motor. If it were me I'd wait until cams were designed for my motor (which should be coming soon). If you get the right cams designed for your motor you will increase HP/TQ and still maintain a "rideable" bike. Unless you ride "wide open throttle" a lot you will want a cam that gives you TQ over HP, and you want the TQ to come in as soon as possible and carry throughout the RPM range.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[HogBreath]

The 575 cams were designed specifically for the 103 motor that came in the CVO's. I would not use these cams in a 110ci motor. If it were me I'd wait until cams were designed for my motor (which should be coming soon). If you get the right cams designed for your motor you will increase HP/TQ and still maintain a "rideable" bike. Unless you ride "wide open throttle" a lot you will want a cam that gives you TQ over HP, and you want the TQ to come in as soon as possible and carry throughout the RPM range.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

I didn't know that dood. I figured they had cams designed for the 110 already. Learned something new. I'll run that by the HD dealer in Memphis. Thanks. Now, I'm trying to read the last 40 posts, LOL

[Hoist!]

Man I thought you made up your mind already HB. It's fun watching you go thru this. I did the same thing for a couple of months too! You got it right now. Pick a tuner; use what he's good with; do intake, exhaust and ECM mod; and hold off on the cams for a little while! This should do you just fine for awhile! I'm sure we'll go thru it again when different cams become available! Hoist!

[Midnight Rider]

HB....give Zippers a call and see if they have, or are near having, a bolt in cam for the 110.  I would bet they are not too far from having one developed for the new motors.

[Fired00d]

I didn't know that dood. I figured they had cams designed for the 110 already. Learned something new. I'll run that by the HD dealer in Memphis. Thanks. Now, I'm trying to read the last 40 posts, LOL

I think once you get good exhaust, good breather/intake, and a good tune (SERT/PC/Whatever) you will be happy w/the way your bike runs. It will sound like a Harley, and run better then any Harley you've probably ever had before. In regards to changing cams I would wait and let some more R&D be done on what's the best cam for your motor. It took Zippers and Freedoms several years before they had something that was a bolt-in cam designed specifically for the 103ci motors. The only cost savings w/doing the cams along w/the mods you planning on doing would be in the dyno time, but because this motor is so new there may be better cams coming out in the future. If this happens then you may want to do cams again, so you haven't really saved anything.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

[RedDevil]

I think once you get good exhaust, good breather/intake, and a good tune (SERT/PC/Whatever) you will be happy w/the way your bike runs. It will sound like a Harley, and run better then any Harley you've probably ever had before. In regards to changing cams I would wait and let some more R&D be done on what's the best cam for your motor. It took Zippers and Freedoms several years before they had something that was a bolt-in cam designed specifically for the 103ci motors. The only cost savings w/doing the cams along w/the mods you planning on doing would be in the dyno time, but because this motor is so new there may be better cams coming out in the future. If this happens then you may want to do cams again, so you haven't really saved anything.

 
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 

d00d,
Sound advice.  I was thinking the same thing.  The 110's hit the world by surprise (still don't know how Harley does that, the folks "on the Hill" could take a lesson from them), and the aftermarket folks are trying to catch up.  I would venture to guess now that most, if not all, of the aftermarket manufacturers have gotten their hands on some 110's that we'll be seeing 110 specific stuff coming out.  My opinion, for what it's worth HB, is do the exhaust mods (AC, SERT or whatever, and pipes) to get that 110 running cooler and let that motor breathe a little better.  I'm going to hold off on cams for now.  The noticeable difference of this 110 the way I have it, over the old 88, is immense, and I'm very happy with the performance.  Just my $.02
Cheers ,
Red

[HogBreath]

Man I thought you made up your mind already HB. It's fun watching you go thru this. I did the same thing for a couple of months too! You got it right now. Pick a tuner; use what he's good with; do intake, exhaust and ECM mod; and hold off on the cams for a little while! This should do you just fine for awhile! I'm sure we'll go thru it again when different cams become available! Hoist!

Ain't nuthin funny about it! My wife is tired of hearing about it, and she gives me "THE LOOK" whenever I just mention it anymore. I've changed my mind again since this morning. Bumpus HD at memphis were the nicest folks I'd ever met Saturday. I had made up my mind to let them do the work. Today I talked to KyHarleyDude and his people at 4 Rivers HD (I'm going to brag since I know they'll see this). They were also very friendly and They have a dyno, which I didn't know. They're 30 miles away from me versus 150. The thing is, they recommend the power commander instead of the SERT. SHrugs, makes me no never mind. PLUS I bet I'll only have to pay KyHarleyDude MSRP for the dyno tune. I Going to try to get him to throw in a T-Shirt too.

I'm doing Power Commander, Using my V&H slip ons on new V&H pipes. Displacing air gave me a free Zipper A/C for free. I looked all around but couldn't find one any cheaper so I took him up on it. WHERE can I go wrong?

 

[Hoist!]

Ain't nuthin funny about it! My wife is tired of hearing about it, and she gives me "THE LOOK" whenever I just mention it anymore. I've changed my mind again since this morning. Bumpus HD at memphis were the nicest folks I'd ever met Saturday. I had made up my mind to let them do the work. Today I talked to KyHarleyDude and his people at 4 Rivers HD (I'm going to brag since I know they'll see this). They were also very friendly and They have a dyno, which I didn't know. They're 30 miles away from me versus 150. The thing is, they recommend the power commander instead of the SERT. SHrugs, makes me no never mind. PLUS I bet I'll only have to pay KyHarleyDude MSRP for the dyno tune. I Going to try to get him to throw in a T-Shirt too.

I'm doing Power Commander, Using my V&H slip ons on new V&H pipes. Displacing air gave me a free Zipper A/C for free. I looked all around but couldn't find one any cheaper so I took him up on it. WHERE can I go wrong?

 

HB, you can't go wrong. Just make sure you pick someone you trust and stick with that guy. If he uses SERT, you'll use SERT. If you go to KHD's shop, and they're good with the PC, use that. Pick a tuner, then use his product. Period! You've got a good intake and exhaust. Just have them change you to the TD's with your V&H Slip-ons, install the Zippers open A/C assembly and have it tuned for that stuff. You'll be good to go! THen your wife won't have to hear it anymore! Hoist!

[Midnight Rider]

Ain't nuthin funny about it! My wife is tired of hearing about it, and she gives me "THE LOOK" whenever I just mention it anymore. I've changed my mind again since this morning. Bumpus HD at memphis were the nicest folks I'd ever met Saturday. I had made up my mind to let them do the work. Today I talked to KyHarleyDude and his people at 4 Rivers HD (I'm going to brag since I know they'll see this). They were also very friendly and They have a dyno, which I didn't know. They're 30 miles away from me versus 150. The thing is, they recommend the power commander instead of the SERT. SHrugs, makes me no never mind. PLUS I bet I'll only have to pay KyHarleyDude MSRP for the dyno tune. I Going to try to get him to throw in a T-Shirt too.

I'm doing Power Commander, Using my V&H slip ons on new V&H pipes. Displacing air gave me a free Zipper A/C for free. I looked all around but couldn't find one any cheaper so I took him up on it. WHERE can I go wrong?

 

HB...you can't go wrong with the PCIII or the SERT..both will get the job done.  The dude at Bumpus is a wizard tuner, I do know that much.

Do you have the SE Backplate for the filter?  I have a used setup (7 months old) if you're interested.  It ain't free, but it'd be cheap enough.  You really need this if you're still running the stock backplate, whether you get it new or whatever.

[HogBreath]

HB, you can't go wrong. Just make sure you pick someone you trust and stick with that guy. If he uses SERT, you'll use SERT. If you go to KHD's shop, and they're good with the PC, use that. Pick a tuner, then use his product. Period! You've got a good intake and exhaust. Just have them change you to the TD's with your V&H Slip-ons, install the Zippers open A/C assembly and have it tuned for that stuff. You'll be good to go! THen your wife won't have to hear it anymore! Hoist!

I totally agree Hoist, then RIDE THE BITCH! right? I'm all but there. The decisions are made. No more talk. I'll wait on cams till later if ever.

[HogBreath]

HB...you can't go wrong with the PCIII or the SERT..both will get the job done.  The dude at Bumpus is a wizard tuner, I do know that much.

Do you have the SE Backplate for the filter?  I have a used setup (7 months old) if you're interested.  It ain't free, but it'd be cheap enough.  You really need this if you're still running the stock backplate, whether you get it new or whatever.

Thanks for the offer TNnBham!! I've already got the backplate though!

[HogBreath]

HB....give Zippers a call and see if they have, or are near having, a bolt in cam for the 110.  I would bet they are not too far from having one developed for the new motors.

I am taking a "wait and see attitude" about that right now. It gives me something else to look forward to.

[Midnight Rider]

I am taking a "wait and see attitude" about that right now. It gives me something else to look forward to.

Doing this stuff in stages is not a bad idea, IMO.  You do something that makes a pretty nice improvement according to your ass dyno, then in a few months, when your ass has gotten used to that, do something else and get another rush...

[RedDevil]

Doing this stuff in stages is not a bad idea, IMO.  You do something that makes a pretty nice improvement according to your ass dyno, then in a few months, when your ass has gotten used to that, do something else and get another rush...

Then you put in cams, then turbo it, then finally, you trade it in for a Boss Hoss with the 500 ci V-8 in it.  We are sick puppies, you know that?   But I wouldn't have it any other way.
Cheers ,
Red

[Midnight Rider]

Then you put in cams, then turbo it, then finally, you trade it in for a Boss Hoss with the 500 ci V-8 in it.  We are sick puppies, you know that?   But I wouldn't have it any other way.
Cheers ,
Red

It's not the first time, or reason, I've been accused of being a sick puppy, in a good way, of course...

It really is nice to take things in steps like that though...you notice a big improvement with the headers and tune, when you get 15 or 20K on the bike, stick some cams or a 103 muscle type kit in, and get another incremental jump in the grin factor...   The good thing about the bike is that you get all that power and grin factor while still getting 35mpg!! 

[RedDevil]

It's not the first time, or reason, I've been accused of being a sick puppy, in a good way, of course...

It really is nice to take things in steps like that though...you notice a big improvement with the headers and tune, when you get 15 or 20K on the bike, stick some cams or a 103 muscle type kit in, and get another incremental jump in the grin factor...   The good thing about the bike is that you get all that power and grin factor while still getting 35mpg!! 

I hear ya Terry.  I'm already looking forward to cams, but gonna wait until they get them all tested out...want to see what Zippers is going to come out with...may do that and the Auto tune at the same time....but we're talking a couple of years. 
Cheers ,
Red

[johnnymap]

Speaking of headers, is anyone using or has anyone used the Bub header system?  It says it can be used with any slip on. 

This would be a different header than the Rinehart, distributed by Bub.

Thanks,

john

[RedDevil]

Speaking of headers, is anyone using or has anyone used the Bub header system?  It says it can be used with any slip on. 

This would be a different header than the Rinehart, distributed by Bub.

Thanks,

john

John,
I believe the Bub duals are non-stepped header pipes, 1.75" from the cylinder to muffler, like the Vance and Hines.  That's why you can use any slippon with them.  The Rineharts are stepped and get progressively larger up to the muffler. 
Cheers ,
Red

[Hoist!]

John,
I believe the Bub duals are non-stepped header pipes, 1.75" from the cylinder to muffler, like the Vance and Hines.  That's why you can use any slippon with them.  The Rineharts are stepped and get progressively larger up to the muffler. 
Cheers ,
Red

Well if they're like the RH's, you better watch the O2 bungs on them too! Hoist!

[johnnymap]

Thanks Redevil.  That is really what I wanted to know.  I knew the RH were stepped but did not know if the Bub's were or not.  They are a little more expensive than the VH.  Will prbably go with the VH.

Thanks,

john

[RedDevil]

Thanks Redevil.  That is really what I wanted to know.  I knew the RH were stepped but did not know if the Bub's were or not.  They are a little more expensive than the VH.  Will prbably go with the VH.

Thanks,

john

John,
I've got absolutely no complaints with the Vance and Hines.  The only thing I see that may be an issue in the future, if I decide to go with the TMax and the longer wideband sensors, is that there may be a conflict between the sensor and the chrome cover on the transmission (rear pipe).  The front pipe doesn't present the problem the Rineharts do, as the sensor is parallel to the ground.  But the rear stock sensor only has about 1/2 in clearance between it and the cover.  I don't know how much longer the wideband sensors are.  So that could be an issue if I decide to go that route.  But it looks to me that V&H modeled the position of their bungs to pretty much match the way the MoCo did on the stock pipes.
Cheers ,
Red

[Talon]

I think it all depends on that your looking for, and the type of riding you do. Baggers are heavy and I think anything that reduces torque, for me is not good. If you ride mostly highway then it might not matter as much. Two into one is probably the best all around performers, but like others I like the duals on a bagger. Then theres the issue of stock vs true duals, there are many issues to look at here, to me the bottom line is what are you willing to spend for some extra HP? is the increase you might get from a head pipe worth the $400, and will it give you the performance where you want it? If so buy it! Below is a link for a new head pipe by Klock Werks, don't know of anyone that's tried it, it's not equal length, but I like the fact that the back pipe doesn't make that sharp bend right out of the head to go under the seat.

https://www.klockwerkscycles.com/parts/index.php?id=123&pg=***KLOCK%20WERKS%20WFB%20PARTS***

Here's a link to exhaust performance, this is for TC88, but they also have EVO results.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust_test_02.htm

[Hoist!]

I think it all depends on that your looking for, and the type of riding you do. Baggers are heavy and I think anything that reduces torque, for me is not good. If you ride mostly highway then it might not matter as much. Two into one is probably the best all around performers, but like others I like the duals on a bagger. Then theres the issue of stock vs true duals, there are many issues to look at here, to me the bottom line is what are you willing to spend for some extra HP? is the increase you might get from a head pipe worth the $400, and will it give you the performance where you want it? If so buy it! Below is a link for a new head pipe by Klock Werks, don't know of anyone that's tried it, it's not equal length, but I like the fact that the back pipe doesn't make that sharp bend right out of the head to go under the seat.

https://www.klockwerkscycles.com/parts/index.php?id=123&pg=***KLOCK%20WERKS%20WFB%20PARTS***

Here's a link to exhaust performance, this is for TC88, but they also have EVO results.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust_test_02.htm

Hey Talon, Welcome aboard! I'm enjoying your early technical posting. You seem very into the nightrider thing. Do you work there?

Boy,how many names do these Bubs guys go by? That's another set of Bubs Headers. I'm all into function, but these look a little too "different" for me. Probably another Bubs, RH sensor bung issue too, since their responses don't seem to idicate they want to do anthing about it.

There's more to the issues of stock vs true duals than HP and TQ. You have to deal with individual cylinder tuning capability and heat as well.

Enjoy the site and keep engaging us. That's how we learn! Hoist!

[RedDevil]

I think it all depends on that your looking for, and the type of riding you do. Baggers are heavy and I think anything that reduces torque, for me is not good. If you ride mostly highway then it might not matter as much. Two into one is probably the best all around performers, but like others I like the duals on a bagger. Then theres the issue of stock vs true duals, there are many issues to look at here, to me the bottom line is what are you willing to spend for some extra HP? is the increase you might get from a head pipe worth the $400, and will it give you the performance where you want it? If so buy it! Below is a link for a new head pipe by Klock Werks, don't know of anyone that's tried it, it's not equal length, but I like the fact that the back pipe doesn't make that sharp bend right out of the head to go under the seat.

https://www.klockwerkscycles.com/parts/index.php?id=123&pg=***KLOCK%20WERKS%20WFB%20PARTS***

Here's a link to exhaust performance, this is for TC88, but they also have EVO results.

http://www.nightrider.com/biketech/exhaust_test_02.htm

Now that's a look I'd have to get used to.  The main problem I see with that design, other than the looks, is it's creating the same problem that a lot of us went to true duals for to begin with, to get rid of the heat that both pipes coming out on the right side caused on our right thighs.  If you notice where the "cross-over" point is on those pipes is right under your thigh again.   Depending on what you want, is the determining factor of which headers to pick.  If you want more torque that comes on early, go with the 2-into-1, or if you like the balanced look without a dummy mufflers, then non-stepped header pipes (V&H, Bubs, etc).  If you want more gain in HP up in the rev range, but the torque comes in a little later, then go with the stepped headers (Rineharts, Bassani, etc.).  There are some threads in this forum that will show you the differences in dyno runs with the aforementioned pipes.  Read up and make the decision based on what's right for you, not what's right by us.   
Cheers ,
Red

[Talon]

No I don't work for night rider, I have several tech web pages I like and they just have a lot of info on the questions asked on this site. I think sometimes people get to wrapped up in upgrades and don't really look at the out come verses the $$$ spent. By the way I emailed Klock Werks about their head pipes, the one pictured is a prototype they used on Discovery Channel, the production set will be chromed, and have heat Shields. Besides Bassani I don't see any other manufacture addressing the hard angle out of the back head. I don't really like the look of the Bassani pipe, and talk about heat, that's a lot of exhaust surface by your leg!!

Like you site!!

[RedDevil]

No I don't work for night rider, I have several tech web pages I like and they just have a lot of info on the questions asked on this site. I think sometimes people get to wrapped up in upgrades and don't really look at the out come verses the $$$ spent. By the way I emailed Klock Werks about their head pipes, the one pictured is a prototype they used on Discovery Channel, the production set will be chromed, and have heat Shields. Besides Bassani I don't see any other manufacture addressing the hard angle out of the back head. I don't really like the look of the Bassani pipe, and talk about heat, that's a lot of exhaust surface by your leg!!

Like you site!!

I don't think the angle of exit on the rear jug is as sharp as you claim.  If you look at the stock headers and others, the angle, because of the frame down-tubes is actually sharper coming out of the front header.  Just my observation.
Cheers ,
Red

[Hoist!]

No I don't work for night rider, I have several tech web pages I like and they just have a lot of info on the questions asked on this site. I think sometimes people get to wrapped up in upgrades and don't really look at the out come verses the $$$ spent. By the way I emailed Klock Werks about their head pipes, the one pictured is a prototype they used on Discovery Channel, the production set will be chromed, and have heat Shields. Besides Bassani I don't see any other manufacture addressing the hard angle out of the back head. I don't really like the look of the Bassani pipe, and talk about heat, that's a lot of exhaust surface by your leg!!

Like you site!!

Keep up the great technical posts Talon. I'm going with the V&H TD's, after the dust settled on exhaust, with S&S SPO's. I'm not sure how much that hard bend matters overall with 1-3/4 in. TD's on a dresser, with the stock cams on a 110". A good intake and exhaust and ECM mod will get the bike running properly and yield HP in the high 80's-low 90's and TQ in the 100-110 lb-ft range. Not bad for a stock bike. A better exhaust will help a little. But you really have to do some engine work to get much more out of them. They don't make cams specific for 110's yet. Let's hear what you settle on and how she tunes when you're done! Hoist!

[HogBreath]

Thanks for that photo RedDevil!!! That's exactly the pipes I'm having installed as we speak--errrr post--err---type!

[Talon]

Yea, RedDevil you right, not much you can do about the front, unless you want an ugly pipe sticking out the front of your bike. I just threw out this new pipe I saw. My main point was look at what your getting when you look at new headers, verses your riding style and your planned mods. If your going to just add a high flow air cleaner, and mufflers, then I'd stick with the stock headers. It's like putting on a big bore kit with stock heads, you'll get some benefit, but not as much as stock jugs, with high performance heads.

[Hoist!]

Yea, RedDevil you right, not much you can do about the front, unless you want an ugly pipe sticking out the front of your bike. I just threw out this new pipe I saw. My main point was look at what your getting when you look at new headers, verses your riding style and your planned mods. If your going to just add a high flow air cleaner, and mufflers, then I'd stick with the stock headers. It's like putting on a big bore kit with stock heads, you'll get some benefit, but not as much as stock jugs, with high performance heads.

The stock headers still leave you with tuning and heat issues. I was originally keeping mine and just doing the mufflers. My tuner talked me into the TD's. Best thing you can do is listen to your tuner and do what he suggests, if you trust him. My tuner's a personal friend and is a Certified PC Dyno-tune shop. I go by his advice. Your tuner is the one tuning it on the Dyno. He should know best. Hoist!

[Talon]

Well, I'll just post one more thing on the subject. I think it's a lot of personal preference, and what you have done to the motor, I'll still contend that on a fairly stock motor the cost of a head pipe verses the HP gain is about $150 per horse. I can spend that some where else. Below is a note from night rider, here I go again, with the night rider stuff!!!

You actually have called the best combination for most bikes. The OEM header pipes and slip-on mufflers is the most cost effective upgrade you can make to the bike. All OEM HD header systems are based on a Cross-over pipe. The cross-over pipes is a well known trick to improve the low/mid range performance of an exhaust system by improving the overall volume contained inside the exhaust system. The larger the volume of the exhaust system, the harder it is for the exhaust system to restrict flow and reduce power when the engine is under heavy load. For those naysayers that might indicate that x-overs hurt power, all you have to do is look under any American muscle car to look at the exhaust system. Corvette, Mustang and virtually every other performance vehicle uses cross-overs to improve power.
 
So the simple slip-on muffler is going to result in the best average power in the low/mid range which is where you spend your time actually riding the bike. This generally applies to engines making up to 1HP/ft.lb./CID.
 
There will a few who say that True Duals will make better HP. This may be a true statement is some conditions, but the torque and average power is generally not going to be up to par with the simpler upgrades. There are always those few who want bragging rights at the local watering hole. But these also tend to be the guys who throw money at their engines, then complain when the don't get the power they expected, but spend all their time telling you how to build an engine.
 
There are always circumstances and situations that you may want to use other exhaust systems. True 2-1 systems and 2-2 systems can have interesting scavenging characteristics that can improve power in certain rpm ranges. But you need to know what these ranges are, build an appropriate engine to optimize these ranges, carefully build an engine to the correct specs, the spend a lot of time on the dyno tuning the engine. These "superior" engines can benefit from other exhaust systems, but superior power also has a superior cost, it is all in the details.
 
Bottom line is there never will be a bottom line, people will always have different opinions on this stuff, that's why there are sites like this, so we can get different perspectives!   
 

[Midnight Rider]

Well, I'll just post one more thing on the subject. I think it's a lot of personal preference, and what you have done to the motor, I'll still contend that on a fairly stock motor the cost of a head pipe verses the HP gain is about $150 per horse. I can spend that some where else. Below is a note from night rider, here I go again, with the night rider stuff!!!

You actually have called the best combination for most bikes. The OEM header pipes and slip-on mufflers is the most cost effective upgrade you can make to the bike. All OEM HD header systems are based on a Cross-over pipe. The cross-over pipes is a well known trick to improve the low/mid range performance of an exhaust system by improving the overall volume contained inside the exhaust system. The larger the volume of the exhaust system, the harder it is for the exhaust system to restrict flow and reduce power when the engine is under heavy load. For those naysayers that might indicate that x-overs hurt power, all you have to do is look under any American muscle car to look at the exhaust system. Corvette, Mustang and virtually every other performance vehicle uses cross-overs to improve power.
 
So the simple slip-on muffler is going to result in the best average power in the low/mid range which is where you spend your time actually riding the bike. This generally applies to engines making up to 1HP/ft.lb./CID.
 
There will a few who say that True Duals will make better HP. This may be a true statement is some conditions, but the torque and average power is generally not going to be up to par with the simpler upgrades. There are always those few who want bragging rights at the local watering hole. But these also tend to be the guys who throw money at their engines, then complain when the don't get the power they expected, but spend all their time telling you how to build an engine.
 
There are always circumstances and situations that you may want to use other exhaust systems. True 2-1 systems and 2-2 systems can have interesting scavenging characteristics that can improve power in certain rpm ranges. But you need to know what these ranges are, build an appropriate engine to optimize these ranges, carefully build an engine to the correct specs, the spend a lot of time on the dyno tuning the engine. These "superior" engines can benefit from other exhaust systems, but superior power also has a superior cost, it is all in the details.
 
Bottom line is there never will be a bottom line, people will always have different opinions on this stuff, that's why there are sites like this, so we can get different perspectives!   
 

Talon...not disagreeing with anything this guy is saying, or with you, about the relative merits of the crossover design, or two into one.  However, and this is a big one in my book, there is no way to seperately tune the rear cylinder without true duals, and that's the cylinder that one needs to be most concerned about with regards to proper A/F mix, and temperature.  Just really no good way to get an accurate measurement there without a seperated pipe, IMO.

Also, a lot of sites, when talking about the most bang for the buck, are referencing 88" motors and not 103 or 110's.  Big difference in flow, and potential benefits of one system over the other.  Another thing to be mindful of, IMO, is thinking ahead about whether one might do a simple cam swap, like the Zippers or Freedom bolt in's for these motors, and what might work best with that potential set up.  Some pretty big numbers have come out of those two cams and not doing anything at all to the heads.  Like 115 - 119 ft lbs and 105 - 110 HP.

[RedDevil]

Yea, RedDevil you right, not much you can do about the front, unless you want an ugly pipe sticking out the front of your bike. I just threw out this new pipe I saw. My main point was look at what your getting when you look at new headers, verses your riding style and your planned mods. If your going to just add a high flow air cleaner, and mufflers, then I'd stick with the stock headers. It's like putting on a big bore kit with stock heads, you'll get some benefit, but not as much as stock jugs, with high performance heads.

Talon,
You're probably right about the cost/hp gains when putting on duals, but there's also something that you have to consider too...looks.  I went with the duals I did, for two main reasons.  I knew I would get good torque numbers that come on pretty early and also I really like the looks of true duals.  So for me it wasn't just performance.  If I looked at a dollar/performance, then the chrome starter over the stock starter, or chrome inner primary over stock, would make no sense at all.  But you don't buy those for performance, you buy those for looks.  Got to satisfy the OCD.    Everything we do to our bikes is for a purpose that is specifically for us.  Each to his/her own, I always say.  Take on board what's said and recommeded here and then at least you can make an informed decision on which way you want to go.  No flames intended towards you Talon, so please don't think I'm trying to do that.  Keep up the good posts.  Thanks.
Cheers ,
Red

[Talon]

I thought that was what I said??  It sound like a personal thing! Like I said there is no bottom line, people will debate certain issues forever and there's no right or wrong, that's how you get good information, by looking at what everyone has to say and making your own choice. What makes you happy is the correct decision, if you like it it's good!!! If it weren't for that there wouldn't be any sites like this everybody would be doing the same thing, that would be boring!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[VaEagle]

Some questions have been asked recently about pipe selection and I thought this might help with all the info and opinions in this thread.

[Muley]

Wow! What a thread. My bike is scheduled to arrive in a couple weeks, and I've been beating my head against the wall and the floor trying to make these same decisions. The dealer where I'm getting the bike is a small shop and doesn't have a DYNO, so I've visited every dealer within a 100 mile radius with  DYNO capability and talked with their DYNO folks. In doing that you can get as many different combinations and thoughts as you'll find in this thread. One guy says stay away from VH terrible warranty, another says we won't even sale RH because of warrant issues use the VH they are great.

So where does that leave me? Moving careful around the the wife, I won't even mention CVO, VH, RH, SERT while she's in the kitchen near the knives.

What I think I'll do this week is, A: VH Headers TD, B: Suppertrapp Slip Ons, C: SERT with a DYNO TUNE. My only question right now is, does the SERT have standard map that will work with these components until I get enough miles to do the DYNO, or wait until the 1,000 mile service and have it all done at once? Then wear out a set of tires and go from there.

[Talon]

I've thrown this out there several times, a comparison between stock head pipes with V&H slipons, and RH true duels. I agree that 2:1 is going to give you the best all around performance, if you don't care about the duel look. But for the range where most people run their baggers, the stock pipe out performs the true duels. As for looks, the true duels do look better. For people talking about heat, have the stock pipe ceramic coated. Thats my opinion.

[Texas 103]

Wow! What a thread. My bike is scheduled to arrive in a couple weeks, and I've been beating my head against the wall and the floor trying to make these same decisions. The dealer where I'm getting the bike is a small shop and doesn't have a DYNO, so I've visited every dealer within a 100 mile radius with  DYNO capability and talked with their DYNO folks. In doing that you can get as many different combinations and thoughts as you'll find in this thread. One guy says stay away from VH terrible warranty, another says we won't even sale RH because of warrant issues use the VH they are great.

So where does that leave me? Moving careful around the the wife, I won't even mention CVO, VH, RH, SERT while she's in the kitchen near the knives.

What I think I'll do this week is, A: VH Headers TD, B: Suppertrapp Slip Ons, C: SERT with a DYNO TUNE. My only question right now is, does the SERT have standard map that will work with these components until I get enough miles to do the DYNO, or wait until the 1,000 mile service and have it all done at once? Then wear out a set of tires and go from there.

I went to a Basanni Power Curve and Supertrapp Supermegs with 20 Discs, just the right sound...Really hits hard  between 2-4 k haven't dyno'd yet getting ready to install a 50MM T.B then Tune with DTT Twin Scan.  then will see what it makes in power. Will have them ceramic coated to deal with the heat issue on the power curve rear pipe . Overall love the sound and power>>> Greg