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[porthole]

The ECM simply adjusted so rich that it washed cylinders down to the point any lubrication was non existent.  This IS especially important when someone is breaking in a new top end.  While the EMS is 'learning', it runs very rich.  By the time it MAY learn a little... cylinders will be toasted.

How was that confirmed?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

By looking at the cylinders.

[eleft36]

Now here's a guy, an EMS advocate, who claims it make a bike run better.

 http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=83845.0

[porthole]

The ECM simply adjusted so rich that it washed cylinders down to the point any lubrication was non existent.
While the EMS is 'learning', it runs very rich.
By the time it MAY learn a little... cylinders will be toasted.

By looking at the cylinders.

What kind of ratio are we talking here - fuel car AFR's of 2:1?

[Buckeye_Tuning]

Don't know really.  Bike would run, etc.  Fuel smell present while running.  Maybe 10:1?  These folks had dude from Rev Perf help and they even came to the customers house to try to dial things in.  After awhile, the bike started to burn a LOT of oil.  One doesn't have a 'tuner' per se with the EMS.  Can NOT look at fuel tables, etc.  My suspicion is the EMS simply refused to 'learn' on this particular bike.  I HAD suspected wrong bung placement as a culprit, but changed my mind after Rev Perf came to the house.  Surely THEY would have mentioned such a thing.

From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners... I have completely shied away from EMS.  Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

[Twolanerider]

Don't know really.  Bike would run, etc.  Fuel smell present while running.  Maybe 10:1?  These folks had dude from Rev Perf help and they even came to the customers house to try to dial things in.  After awhile, the bike started to burn a LOT of oil.  One doesn't have a 'tuner' per se with the EMS.  Can NOT look at fuel tables, etc.  My suspicion is the EMS simply refused to 'learn' on this particular bike.  I HAD suspected wrong bung placement as a culprit, but changed my mind after Rev Perf came to the house.  Surely THEY would have mentioned such a thing.

From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners... I have completely shied away from EMS.  Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

Actually.... with something as simple as the TwinTec scan tool plugged in to the data port you can watch AFR in real time.  

[sadunbar]

Don't know really.  Bike would run, etc.  Fuel smell present while running.  Maybe 10:1?  These folks had dude from Rev Perf help and they even came to the customers house to try to dial things in.  After awhile, the bike started to burn a LOT of oil.  One doesn't have a 'tuner' per se with the EMS.  Can NOT look at fuel tables, etc.  My suspicion is the EMS simply refused to 'learn' on this particular bike.  I HAD suspected wrong bung placement as a culprit, but changed my mind after Rev Perf came to the house.  Surely THEY would have mentioned such a thing.

From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners... I have completely shied away from EMS.  Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

I'm sure every tuning device on the market has suffered from isolated reports of "ruined engines" caused by the device, when the root cause of the problem was never actually factually determined.  I believe the vast majority of EMS users are more than satisfied with the results of the device (also true with the TTS, SERT, TMAX, Power Commander, etc...)

It's disappointing Rev. Perf. abandoned development and maintenance of the EMS - they had a good thing going with this tuner.

[porthole]

I have personally see a couple engines ruined by the EMS system.  Auto tuning my ass.

Don't know really.
From this one single incident, in which I had actually had contact with the owners...

So which is it 1 or more then 1 

Don't know really.
Simply a system that NOBODY can look into when things don't work like they should.

Well Don beat me to it, but I can see what is going on with mine, doesn't mean I completely understand it - but i can see it.

I got an email the other day from Rev P saying they would be back into support for the tuner in late April.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

I wasn't personally involved in the other ruined engine reported.  Same results.

No... one can NOT plug in a DTT and
 'see' the AFR.  One would need a Twin Scan plus kit to do so, which I DO have, and... a bunch of other WBo devices like Innovate LM2; (2) LC1s; Powerdex AFR tools; DTT Twin Scan + Kit, etc.

By the time it came to that, Rev Perf was already on site.  They 'said' it was fine.  End results speak for them selves.

Yes, I am SURE most of these work fine.  But I actually talked to Brian right before release at the Cinci show.  There were like 15 base maps and the device dialed it in from there.  DIALED IT IN...  this is NOT dialed in from the jump, nor is it good enough for break-in like Brian told me.  The bike in question NEVER learned the proper AFVs.  EMS was used during break-in.

Also, after studying the architecture, and talking to SC, I determined that the 'wide bands' were hooked to a port inside of the ECM that was used for CAR development when the bike version of the ECM was developed.  Left over stuff.

None of us will never know, unless they hook an EMS to some sniffing equipment and test out whats coming out of the pipes.

Surely folks CAN be happy with their personal outcomes, but for ME to recommend this device, after what I saw, I will NOT recommend this device.  I will recommend a flash tuner, instead.

[Twolanerider]

You are completely correct in that if you're not comfortable with EMS or any other part you shouldn't use it or recommend.  Even if you're not sure why.

[porthole]

EMS was used during break-in.

As well as every new vehicle on the market that uses engine management systems to control the the physical running of the engine.

Surely folks CAN be happy with their personal outcomes, but for ME to recommend this device, after what I saw, I will NOT recommend this device.  I will recommend a flash tuner, instead.

The following comment really has no bearing on the fact that I do have a Rev P EMS, but more so because you have yet to validate any of your claims with a) who you are are and why your suggestions should matter and b) with no real data other then I saw one engine that the system dumped so much fuel down the holes that there was no oil left and the engine blew up.

Some guy once said - trust, but verify. 

I will recommend a flash tuner, instead.

So who are you shilling for then?

[Steve Cole]

I hate to get in things like this but the reports are true. The customer that had the failed engine had Rev P come out on two different occasions to try and straighten it out. The second time Rev flew to the customers home and spent 2 days trying to get it to work properly. After this all happened the customer got in touch with me about using a TTS unit to replace the Rev unit, so that got me personally involved so I can verify what Wurk truk has posted about one failure. The bike owners name is not important but they are out of WY. From what I was told, Rev P also did the original install of the unit as well.

[porthole]

the reports are true. The customer

So is it multiple or one that is verified that an engine failed because of a Rev P EMS?

I'm concerned because I have a Rev P on my bike and I will be breaking in some work.

But - I would have to think 1 verified  issue which may or may not be proven that the RP EMS was the root cause failure doesn't warrant a blanket commendation. Unless the facts are presented.

And even then I would be curious if every other HD V-twin engine management fuel-timing system has had a stellar record and zero failures.

Including the MoCo's own PCM's

Now that said, "I" can verify at least one power commander that failed and left a forum member here stranded on the side of a busy, dangerous local highway with his wife at 9 at night.

We did not condemn the PC and ended up putting a new one back on.

[Buckeye_Tuning]

"Money Effect"-  I own one so it MUST be the best.  

This type of thinking holds NO water in the clear daylight.

I don't shill for chit.  Right now?  I tend towards TTS and also Direct Link.  EMS is NOT the same as an ECM.  A normal ECM can be broken into using various tools to VERIFY settings on how much fuel is ACTUALLY being called down.  Sepst, TTS, PV, Direct Link, etc.  ONLY EMS locks out such verification.  Our ECM is an device made by Delphi.  It is programmed by MOCO.  EMS takes that ECM, alters it both physically and software wise...  NO similarity, except they both control functions needed for the engine to run.  Same as a TMax is also an ECM... but even with TMax, one HAS control.  It is MY opinion that one NEEDS control in certain situations... the foremost being new builds.  Or... one CAN (not WILL, but... CAN) screw up an engine by having to WAIT upon the dialing process.  This is ALL common sense to most members, who don't allow the "Money Effect" to come into play.  I have spent $1000s as an individual bike owner playing around.  I AM inquisitive.  I do NOT allow ANYBODY to make my decisions for me.  I investigate.  Like when I first stated using TTS... back at V1.01 with Doc1.  I purchased a Twin SCan + kit to sniff exhaust with wide bands to .... check and verify... the settings the TTS wanted to use. (BOTH devices called basically the same... TTS DID use good algorithms to tune with).

I'm not here to 'shill' for anything.  I tune once and awhile and have a dyno.  I know a few members here and decided to stop on by.....  since I became BANNED on HTT.  Knowing and stating what I believe is the truth is whats happening for members.  On HTT, I posted that base maps from SEPST and TTS were different than those used by PV.  THAT was simply too politically incorrect for the 'new' PV site...  HTT.  I call em as I see em.  I REALLY like members.  FOlks like ME!  To learn the truth or whats mostly the truth about things.

I HATE the money effect and am VERY vocal about that kind of thinking.  If one can't throw a new build on a wheel and tell what AFR is being called AND what the actual AFR is... not a device for me.  Same as when I was a DIYer...  I want to be in CONTROL on how much fuel is being dumped, yes dumped, in a new build engine.  A NEW engine is NOT any place to hook up a 'tuner' that has to learn first.....  rings WILL be toast way ass before ANY tuner can 'dial it in'.  And THAT...  isn't an opinion at all (like some of the rest of my thoughts are)....  on a NEW build, one HAS to have control of fuel right away.  PERIOD.  AND... that being the case (one should NOT use a 'self tuning ECM, with OUT the ability to set base settings)... why would I recommend or offer this device to ANY customer?  AT some point...  most of us online go for MORE performance, right?  Different pistons come into play for most seeking enhanced performance at SOME point.  AND... at THAT point... the EMS sucks.

With a flash tuner, there are 100s of base maps.  Also, even me, as a DIYer, could also alter the map a bit to be slightly rich for when I heat cycle an engine.  So can the members here.  EMS, you have NO idea of whats happening.  Some things take NO MORE THAN COMMON SENSE.  The common sense of ring seating is slightly rich.  PERIOD.  Not lean and not way rich.  with fewer than 15 base maps installed by EMS, there HAS to be a period where the bike 'dials in'.  Right?  Common sense is a bitch.  Prolly should be getting used to me here in the ECM section.  I will be a vendor by mid summer and offer members discounts on dyno tunes, right?

And... this is NOT to say if an EMS is installed on some stockish bike, that it won't work, but it is NOT anything for ME to offer customers for sure.  

[porthole]

When computer controls came out on Chrysler products back in the 80's, the "Combustion Computer" caused a lot of problems from severe engine issues to accidents. People still bought the vehicles though.

Ford has some real issues concerning fuel systems with the 6.7 diesels, causing some customers to be out $10,000+, yet the Super Duty is still the best selling heavy duty pickup in the world.