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[digga25]

Does anyone know if this system can be removed from one bike and added to a different bike, or is it married to the vin number like the TTS.

[hogasm]

You have to send in the new ECM and have it flashed

[digga25]

I didnt make my post very clear.I have a Rev Perf EMS on my 09 serg.Can this be removed from my bike and switched to another bike.

[Twolanerider]

I didnt make my post very clear.I have a Rev Perf EMS on my 09 serg.Can this be removed from my bike and switched to another bike.

Yes; and no. 

Physically yes it could if dealing with a similar year model bike.  Remember, however, that the tuning instructions programmed within that ECM are specific to the bike the ECM is installed on.  So only if the new bike had a a very close or identical build would you use it as a direct swap.

Pairing of the ECM and TSM/TSSM on bikes so equipped is also an issue.  The modules would have to be remarried on bikes on which the pair had never seen each other before.

[sadunbar]

I didnt make my post very clear.I have a Rev Perf EMS on my 09 serg.Can this be removed from my bike and switched to another bike.

The hardware supplied as part of the EMS system can be put on any bike.  But your EMS "map" has been downloaded into your ECM.  So you either need to also move your ECM to the other bike (and marry the ECM to the other bike), or you need to send the ECM from the 2nd bike to Rev. Pef. to have it flashed with the appropriate map.  If you go this route, you would also need to send the ECM from bike #1 back to Rev. Perf. to have it flashed back to a stock map.

So, to answer your question - yes - if it is a similar bike, but there are a few steps involved.  

[mjb765]

The hardware supplied as part of the EMS system can be put on any bike.  But your EMS "map" has been downloaded into your ECM.  So you either need to also move your ECM to the other bike (and marry the ECM to the other bike), or you need to send the ECM from the 2nd bike to Rev. Pef. to have it flashed with the appropriate map.  If you go this route, you would also need to send the ECM from bike #1 back to Rev. Perf. to have it flashed back to a stock map.

So, to answer your question - yes - if it is a similar bike, but there are a few steps involved.  

Very interesting....I called Rev Perf and asked the exact same question and was told "no" since the add-on module for the O2 sensors marries to the Vin

I completely understand the ECM situation and obviously that would need re-programming, but now I am not sure about the additional module.

[Twolanerider]

Very interesting....I called Rev Perf and asked the exact same question and was told "no" since the add-on module for the O2 sensors marries to the Vin

I completely understand the ECM situation and obviously that would need re-programming, but now I am not sure about the additional module.

The add-on module doesn't even plug in to the data port MJ.  Just carries o2 sensor information.  Also remember that when an EMS kit is ordered that module comes to you as part of the virgin package.  The module does not travel back and forth with the ECM for programming.  So no bike specific programming is ever done to the module.

Even if the module and bike did marry if the ECM was moved as part of the EMS kit to do the swap you'd still be good.  That assumes the ECMs are swapped between the bikes in question as part of the EMS swap.  But since the EMS package is primarily the work done within the ECM this gent is (hopefully) planning on doing that.  Otherwise he's not really swapping the EMS package at all.

[sadunbar]

Very interesting....I called Rev Perf and asked the exact same question and was told "no" since the add-on module for the O2 sensors marries to the Vin

I completely understand the ECM situation and obviously that would need re-programming, but now I am not sure about the additional module.

Not sure who you spoke to....but that's wrong.  Call back and ask for Brian...

[mjb765]

The add-on module doesn't even plug in to the data port MJ.  Just carries o2 sensor information.  Also remember that when an EMS kit is ordered that module comes to you as part of the virgin package.  The module does not travel back and forth with the ECM for programming.  So no bike specific programming is ever done to the module.

Even if the module and bike did marry if the ECM was moved as part of the EMS kit to do the swap you'd still be good.  That assumes the ECMs are swapped between the bikes in question as part of the EMS swap.  But since the EMS package is primarily the work done within the ECM this gent is (hopefully) planning on doing that.  Otherwise he's not really swapping the EMS package at all.

I understand the logic behind it....it didn't make sense to me either......I was just posting what I was told....

[Twolanerider]

I understand the logic behind it....it didn't make sense to me either......I was just posting what I was told....

Unfortunately what EMS does or doesn't do likely won't remain a large question in the aftermarket universe.  They've decided not to pursue updating the product so it'll not be made available for bikes 2011 and newer (at least not without jumping through the hoops of buying an older ECM to retrofit in).  With the product not being given expanding new markets the version for the older bikes will become in a way orphaned to limited demand, updating and attention. 

Too bad.  I still think it was the best/easiest engine management tool we've seen.

[mjb765]

Unfortunately what EMS does or doesn't do likely won't remain a large question in the aftermarket universe.  They've decided not to pursue updating the product so it'll not be made available for bikes 2011 and newer (at least not without jumping through the hoops of buying an older ECM to retrofit in).  With the product not being given expanding new markets the version for the older bikes will become in a way orphaned to limited demand, updating and attention. 

Too bad.  I still think it was the best/easiest engine management tool we've seen.

That's official?  They have stopped trying to crack the 2011 and newer models??

[Twolanerider]

That's official?  They have stopped trying to crack the 2011 and newer models??

Yeap....

[Midnight Rider]

Yeap....

That's a shame, as quite a few of you seem very happy with the product.  The bright side is that at least the chance of anything going wrong with what they've done are very slim, assuming that the O2 sensors they use are standard wide band and available elsewhere, or the equivalent thereof.

Reckon what the deal is that makes the newer ECM's more difficult to crack?

[Twolanerider]

That's a shame, as quite a few of you seem very happy with the product.  The bright side is that at least the chance of anything going wrong with what they've done are very slim, assuming that the O2 sensors they use are standard wide band and available elsewhere, or the equivalent thereof.

Reckon what the deal is that makes the newer ECM's more difficult to crack?

It's a Bosch 17014 type sensor.  Available at local parts store for around $50.  They actually use an unterminated version and put a Deutsch connector on it rather than what's normally there.  But that's just a connector swap.  So not a big deal.

Have no idea what the specific issues might be.  TTS, of course, has a product for the newer bikes.  While TTS might claim the insights necessary to defeat the code when others could not that might or not be an accurate comparison.  The EMS product is very intrusive in to several areas of the ECM even rewriting some base code while also leaving the ECM able to be accessed by standard diagnostics without issue.  TTS installs on your laptop and rewrites in just the tuning area (I think this is correct) but still recommends a return to stock state so dealer diagnostics can be done.  So the products aren't an apples to apples to comparison in either application or result.  Both productive but still different.

The only thing I know for sure, however, is that I don't know enough to know how difficult the task really is.  It is a shame the product's promising evolution won't proceed though.  On the upside, however, there's always someone somewhere working on "the next big thing."  Now we just wait to see what that might be.

[mjb765]

The only thing I know for sure, however, is that I don't know enough to know how difficult the task really is.  It is a shame the product's promising evolution won't proceed though.  On the upside, however, there's always someone somewhere working on "the next big thing."  Now we just wait to see what that might be.

Maybe a stock Harley that performs well enough from the factory so we don't have to do all of the chit to get them to run correctly right out of the gate

[Twolanerider]

Maybe a stock Harley that performs well enough from the factory so we don't have to do all of the chit to get them to run correctly right out of the gate

Now you're trying to screw with over a century of tradition.   That's just wrong..... 

[Midnight Rider]

Maybe a stock Harley that performs well enough from the factory so we don't have to do all of the chit to get them to run correctly right out of the gate

Maybe when they are water cooled, but I'm not holding my breath...

[grc]

Maybe when they are water cooled, but I'm not holding my breath...

Much of what's wrong with how Harley's run from the factory doesn't have a whole lot to do with the method used for cooling the engine.  P-poor engine calibrations used to be fairly common in the auto industry back when we were first easing into the brave new world of EFI.  Fortunately for the auto and truck users out there, we figured it out pretty quickly.  Waiting for Harley to care enough to figure it out seems to be the biggest problem, because they can easily hire or contract with plenty of qualified folks trained by the auto companies to do the programming.  I'm still convinced that Harley does what it does on purpose, so they can sell all sorts of high margin stuff after the sale to make the bike run the way it should have stock.  It's all about the bucks.


Jerry

btw, this situation with the EMS is just one of the things that made me lukewarm at best about the entire thing.  Since you don't get the software or interface to adjust the map yourself, if they walk away and you need a map change for whatever reason you will need to buy something else to tune your ECM.  Much better to have the VCI in your hot little hands and the software on your laptop, and not have to rely on shipping an ECM off to someone who may decide to abandon the product. JMHO of course.

[Midnight Rider]

All valid points, Jerry.  My only thing is that IF they could better cool the engine (at least the heads/exhaust temp) then the factory tune might be a little better with regards to being able to meet EPA standards a bit easier without burning your inner thighs off.

But, you are exactly right in saying that there is really no excuse for HD not taking advantage of current EFI technology, other than getting in our pocketbooks after the sale.

[Twolanerider]

btw, this situation with the EMS is just one of the things that made me lukewarm at best about the entire thing.  Since you don't get the software or interface to adjust the map yourself, if they walk away and you need a map change for whatever reason you will need to buy something else to tune your ECM.  Much better to have the VCI in your hot little hands and the software on your laptop, and not have to rely on shipping an ECM off to someone who may decide to abandon the product. JMHO of course.

That is a concern with any new application.  Conversely every good product has to have some early adoption or it will never be more than a beta test.  Buyers' make their choices based on perceived gain, company rep and, sometimes, just the general feeling of things.  In this case the product offered promise, and a seemingly better and easier way of doing things, the company's rep made the risk palatable and the overall subjective feeling was promising.  For what it's worth the cessation of new development isn't, at least for now, coming at the expense of support to existing product.  So anyone that needs an ECM reprogrammed or is interested in new purchases for prior year model bikes can still be serviced.  Obviously one can't help but wonder how long support continues when new product development has ceased though. 

[digga25]

Twolane,can you tell me why you chose the Rev Perf EMS over any of the other systems.TTS,Power Commander,SERT,etc...    My problem, having a build done.The shop cannot access the computer to make any adjustments. I told them I had the TTS as well and they want me to use that to dyno the engine. I explained to them that I can send the ecm to Rev Perf and they would remap with the new info and send back to me. Reinstall and let the EMS do its magic.They wont warrantee the build because they think that the EMS will lean out the motor too  much for breakin. They want to be able to adjust for break in. They also said if I had the SE tuner then that would be ok also,because it can be adjusted. Any thoughts.

[Twolanerider]

Twolane,can you tell me why you chose the Rev Perf EMS over any of the other systems.TTS,Power Commander,SERT,etc...    My problem, having a build done.The shop cannot access the computer to make any adjustments. I told them I had the TTS as well and they want me to use that to dyno the engine. I explained to them that I can send the ecm to Rev Perf and they would remap with the new info and send back to me. Reinstall and let the EMS do its magic.They wont warrantee the build because they think that the EMS will lean out the motor too  much for breakin. They want to be able to adjust for break in. They also said if I had the SE tuner then that would be ok also,because it can be adjusted. Any thoughts.

Sounds like the shop may simply be unfamiliar with the engine management tool so is unwilling to warranty the motor work due to that fact.  They're mistaken about what the system will do.  But from their (uninformed) perspective I can understand their reasoning and concern. 

It's not really their job to know everything about every product on the market.  They can only recommend what they're familiar enough with to use.  More than that is taking a risk with their time and their client's money.  If we want a shop to do more than that we either assume that risk or we hope they're willing to take a moment to let us educate them on the product we're considering.

In summary I chose it becasue it held the promise of being very effective (as in my case it has proved to be) and it was dead/dumb simple to use and almost immediate in its effect.  Unless you're one of the guys who just enjoys the (to me) tedious aspect of lugging the notebook and really dialing a tune in or letting your bike get beat on the dyno for hours the product seemed an obvious solution.  If yours is a pre-2011 bike it is a product that could be used.


The first thread is a general conversation on the product:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=53222.0




This second thread is a product installation with more discussion and more detail:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=58189.0

[glens]

The EMS product is very intrusive in to several areas of the ECM even rewriting some base code while also leaving the ECM able to be accessed by standard diagnostics without issue.  TTS installs on your laptop and rewrites in just the tuning area (I think this is correct) but still recommends a return to stock state so dealer diagnostics can be done.

What area(s) the TTS writes to depends on both the mastertune software used and the calibration.  Earlier versions of the mastertune software did not set the write-protect flag in the ECM, so other means of writing to the ECM could still be used, to either good or bad effect.  If someone also had a PowerVision or a SEPST for the ECM, when the ECM is write-protected they are unusable.  Same goes for the shop's Digital Technician.  There are evidently one or two "normal" maintenance procedures which fail when the ECM is written by the latest versions of mastertune, so returning the ECM to "stock" is first necessary.  It then behooves one to grab a new "stock" image for later such use before putting the custom calibration back in the ECM.

In the .mt8 calibrations, some extra features are present which necessitate writing to another area of the ECM beyond the "tuning" area (probably similarly true for the EMS), so if the ECM weren't write-protected, an alternate device which only writes to the "tuning" area could/would (at least temporarily?) render the ECM unusable for its intended purpose.

For most "normal" dealer diagnosis, it's not necessary to return-to-stock an .mt8-laden ECM.

[digga25]

I too dont like to play with the tuning of my bike.I bought the ems because of the ratings on this forum.Installed it and rode the bike without problem.After talking with Andrew I will tune with the TTS and after breakin switch to EMS.

[mjb765]

I too dont like to play with the tuning of my bike.I bought the ems because of the ratings on this forum.Installed it and rode the bike without problem.After talking with Andrew I will tune with the TTS and after breakin switch to EMS.

If you are going to buy a TTS and have the bike tuned with the TTS, why switch after the fact? Once the bike is tuned properly, no further work is needed unless you continue to make changes.

[Twolanerider]

If you are going to buy a TTS and have the bike tuned with the TTS, why switch after the fact? Once the bike is tuned properly, no further work is needed unless you continue to make changes.

Yeah........ what MJ said.

I appreciate the potential of the EMS product.  I appreciate the security to be had in reduncancy if it's belt and suspenders.  But belt followed by suspenders that requires removal of belt isn't a security redundancy.  It's just paying twice.

[kraut]

Hmmm, I wonder why they decided to step out of this market and weather that's a final decision or just for the present beeing  

[digga25]

The TTS was my first tuner.Was not happy with it. Did a number of vtune runs and the bike ran great.But when it got hot it would go into limp mode and the engine light would come on and the cruise would shut off.Went through every avenue I could,not being a tuner,this forum,the company I bought it from,other companys that sold the unit and could not get the problem resolved.After hearing about the EMS on this forum I was sold.Installed it and never looked back. So to sum up I own both fuel mgt systems already. I think it is my inability to recognize the problem with the TTS. Hey maybe after the finish tune with the TTS it will be ok.

[HOGMIKE]

The TTS was my first tuner.Was not happy with it. Did a number of vtune runs and the bike ran great.But when it got hot it would go into limp mode and the engine light would come on and the cruise would shut off.Went through every avenue I could,not being a tuner,this forum,the company I bought it from,other companys that sold the unit and could not get the problem resolved.After hearing about the EMS on this forum I was sold.Installed it and never looked back. So to sum up I own both fuel mgt systems already. I think it is my inability to recognize the problem with the TTS. Hey maybe after the finish tune with the TTS it will be ok.

I talked my buddy into the TTS also, he was not happy with it. Starting issues, idle issues, hot start, etc. I contacted the vendor and we tried different settings. Even used my map from my '09 that ran great.
Finally found out there was another issue with his bike (compensator assembly) that was causing the problems. Replaced that, bike runs great now with the original map that we got from the vendor! Go figure.
Bike is an '09 Ultra with 54 cams, mufflers, air cleaner.
 

[digga25]

Strange that the compensator could have that effect but any thing is worth checking to have the machine right,thanks for that.

[HOGMIKE]

Strange that the compensator could have that effect but any thing is worth checking to have the machine right,thanks for that.

That's what I thought, but, it was so sloppy that when starting or at idle everything was slapping around, you could hear it.
It would affect the timing signal, etc at start and idle it was so bad.
I should have taken pictures when we got it apart.
Just something else to look at.