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[Keats]

Brian,

This is where I get myself in trouble (getting in the middle of miscommunication), and after reading the thread. I think what FR8TRN was pointing out that low siding a bike is not avoiding a crash, it is a crash (maybe somewhat controlled?).  Maybe avoiding a worse crash, but still a crash.
I think his point was better to not put yourself in the position of having to low side a bike at all.
I do not really know how to practice low side especially now since I have ABS brakes, jamming on the rear brake alone
probably will not get you there to induce a slide. 

[FR8TRN]

they teach that in the rider safety courses.

I have never heard an MSF instructor say you are better off laying the bike down, if they did it was on their own accord not a practice taught by MSF.  Short of riding off a cliff you always stand a better chance of riding it out braking and swerving than laying it down, which is a guaranteed CRASH.  Not sure what you mean by barrel roll on the bike, perhaps a high-side is what you mean, and is avoidable, first by not being in that situation in the first place, should that fail a handful of throttle when the rear tire grabs the road will do alot to keeping you on the bike.  I've had 2 occasions to do this and it has worked both times, riders behind me just knew the bike was going to fling my wife and I right off.  Both were at relatively sensible speeds though, not breakneck sportbike speeds where any reaction is going to be too late.  As for T-Boning a car, I've seen friends stuck under vehicles before and I've seen them hit the sides of em, I much prefer to hit the side going as slow as I possibly can when I finally impact, rather than sliding under the vehicle completely out of control on what is happening.

Here is the MSF Motorcycle Operators Manual, please point out where it states laying down the bike is your best option.  To save you time, Crash Avoidance (notice it's not titled "Intentional Crashing") starts on page 24.

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Library_Motorcycle_Operator_Manual.pdf

I'd recommend finding a different MSF course to take with a different instructor that doesn't insert their own agenda, I hate reading about people in the Rider Down section also, specially ones that owe me a tour of CA next time I get out there. 

[Mr. We]

Anyone tried this? May sound dumb but when in a twistie, countersteering and sitting in the centre of your saddle, you and your bike are one... push down with your foot on the floor board that's on the inside of your turn. It add's to the countersteer. I don't know how but it works.

Bad habit admitted...  
I use a similar tactic when lazily cruizing corners... I sink my weight into the highway pegs. makes a good deal of a difference... course if the corner tightens, I (instinctively) bring my feet onto the floorboards and move up in the seat. Yeah it can be exiting at times, but ya gotta keep the blood flowing!  


Oh yeah, I can't get enough info on how to negotiate the Dragon, makes that 9 hour wait to go home so much more enjoyable, Thank you!

[SPIDERMAN]

Before this descends into the ridiculous, I'd like to know how one avoids a blown rear tire at 70 mph ? The tire had less than 4k on it, got cut somehow unbeknownst to me and blew. The bike started swaying back and forth as the rear tire tried to remove itself from the rim. Couldn't use the rear brake at all and was not getting slowed down fast enough feathering the front brake. Barrel roll to me is when the bike is so far sideways it has to keep going in that direction and flips the rider off.(sorry, I'd rather go down on my a$$) So given the choice between becoming a human missile and doing a slide for life on my a$$, I chose the latter. Anyway, how many times do I have to say I crashed. I never said I didn't crash, just that IN MY OPINION, laying it down was the better option that being effin flipped off the damn thing at a high rate of speed. OK, enough on this one.

As to some idiot pulling out directly in your line of travel without warning or notice, again, I'd like to know how that's avoidable. And maybe it's just me, but the idea of hitting something broadside as opposed to MAYBE sliding under it (although how something 3 feet wide is gonna get under the average cage I'm not sure) strikes me as somewhat nutty, but I'm always open to new ideas. What I will say though is that these motorcycles we all love so much don't stop very well in the damn rain. And if slowing down to 50 due to the rain is not being cautious enough- - - - again, I'm listening.

Lastly, my exposure to a Rider Safety Course was 23 years ago in Maine. It was an afternoon course taught by Balls Farabaugh from the MRF. With his creative attitude on life, who knows what was "official" and what was opinion. And maybe my CRS has kicked in and I'm just making all this up as I go too. Hell, let's all just agree that in 40 years of riding, I haven't learned a damn thing.

FR8TRN   You have an open invite to my home and my hospitality anytime. That's a given.

B B

[Talon]

Before this descends into the ridiculous, I'd like to know how one avoids a blown rear tire at 70 mph ? The tire had less than 4k on it, got cut somehow unbeknownst to me and blew. The bike started swaying back and forth as the rear tire tried to remove itself from the rim. Couldn't use the rear brake at all and was not getting slowed down fast enough feathering the front brake. Barrel roll to me is when the bike is so far sideways it has to keep going in that direction and flips the rider off.(sorry, I'd rather go down on my a$$) So given the choice between becoming a human missile and doing a slide for life on my a$$, I chose the latter. Anyway, how many times do I have to say I crashed. I never said I didn't crash, just that IN MY OPINION, laying it down was the better option that being effin flipped off the damn thing at a high rate of speed. OK, enough on this one.

As to some idiot pulling out directly in your line of travel without warning or notice, again, I'd like to know how that's avoidable. And maybe it's just me, but the idea of hitting something broadside as opposed to MAYBE sliding under it (although how something 3 feet wide is gonna get under the average cage I'm not sure) strikes me as somewhat nutty, but I'm always open to new ideas. What I will say though is that these motorcycles we all love so much don't stop very well in the damn rain. And if slowing down to 50 due to the rain is not being cautious enough- - - - again, I'm listening.

Lastly, my exposure to a Rider Safety Course was 23 years ago in Maine. It was an afternoon course taught by Balls Farabaugh from the MRF. With his creative attitude on life, who knows what was "official" and what was opinion. And maybe my CRS has kicked in and I'm just making all this up as I go too. Hell, let's all just agree that in 40 years of riding, I haven't learned a damn thing.

FR8TRN   You have an open invite to my home and my hospitality anytime. That's a given.

B B

Don't ride over 67mph!! 

Craig

[Keats]

I would bet that most deaths/critical injuries are caused by coming in contact with something that is at considerable different speed than you are.
Now before you go DUH!
My case in point would be my own experience hitting a car head on at 50 mph plus what little speed the car was doing.
You are right, it is hard to plan for some instances, but if I had the time to lay the bike down I would have probably have died to the sudden full impact to the car.
The amazing thing was I did not have time and impacted the handlebars and was thrown clear of the car (went over). I had lots of abrasions and totaled both the bike and the car. (cage driver went through the windshield)
The lack of impact is what saved my life.
I am not saying this is a choice you have in a Milli second, but going over a hood of a car could possibly be a better outcome than a sudden impact with a car on your side.
It is all about the the sudden change in velocities.

Not much of a fan of low sides either except in the movies.

[FR8TRN]

Before this descends into the ridiculous, I'd like to know how one avoids a blown rear tire at 70 mph ? The tire had less than 4k on it, got cut somehow unbeknownst to me and blew. The bike started swaying back and forth as the rear tire tried to remove itself from the rim. Couldn't use the rear brake at all and was not getting slowed down fast enough feathering the front brake. Barrel roll to me is when the bike is so far sideways it has to keep going in that direction and flips the rider off.(sorry, I'd rather go down on my a$$) So given the choice between becoming a human missile and doing a slide for life on my a$$, I chose the latter. Anyway, how many times do I have to say I crashed. I never said I didn't crash, just that IN MY OPINION, laying it down was the better option that being effin flipped off the damn thing at a high rate of speed. OK, enough on this one.

As to some idiot pulling out directly in your line of travel without warning or notice, again, I'd like to know how that's avoidable. And maybe it's just me, but the idea of hitting something broadside as opposed to MAYBE sliding under it (although how something 3 feet wide is gonna get under the average cage I'm not sure) strikes me as somewhat nutty, but I'm always open to new ideas. What I will say though is that these motorcycles we all love so much don't stop very well in the damn rain. And if slowing down to 50 due to the rain is not being cautious enough- - - - again, I'm listening.

Lastly, my exposure to a Rider Safety Course was 23 years ago in Maine. It was an afternoon course taught by Balls Farabaugh from the MRF. With his creative attitude on life, who knows what was "official" and what was opinion. And maybe my CRS has kicked in and I'm just making all this up as I go too. Hell, let's all just agree that in 40 years of riding, I haven't learned a damn thing.

FR8TRN   You have an open invite to my home and my hospitality anytime. That's a given.

B B

Now a blown tire at speed changes everything, all bets are off and anything you can do to avoid serious injury is fair game cause the bike isn't gonna react like it would under normal conditions.  A fistful of throttle with a blown rear tire would probably have made things worse.  But understand, I wasn't directing anything at you, directly, just the statement in general, every situation is different and calls for a decision nobody else can make.  If your speaking to something recent I don't recall reading about it so I wasn't talking about anything specific, but glad you came out of it alright......thats a relative term you understand.  

Ain't too many cages out there your gonna slide under, get stuck under maybe, but not slide under.  Alot has changed in 23yrs, brakes on bikes are alot better, tires are alot better all adding up to better stopping ability.  23yrs ago jumping off was probably better.... ....alot has changed.  With the ABS on the newer bikes your gonna have to be one hell of a wrestler to put a bike down on purpose, but not all of us are lucky enough to have that.  My most recent "oh $%it" moment a woman pulled out in front of me in a truck and then saw me, coming to a stop in my lane, I finally stopped within inches of her door.  But you can be damn sure if I was gonna hit her and go flying, it was gonna be thru HER window and not over the hood or bed.

Perhaps a refresher course is in order, I plan on taking a beginners course this coming spring with my son......hmm....wonder if they'll let me use my glide instead of them little 250's.  After he gets a little seat time we'll take an advanced course together.  Last kid for me and probably the only one I wanna see riding, oldest would kill himself in the first 3 miles if he made it that far and middle boy isn't the riding type, this last one though has a good head on his shoulders and a fair sense of responsibility.....took 3 of em but I think I finally got one right.....

Spidey your more than welcome at my place also should you ever find your way to the East Coast....

[Gone Fishin']

I have never heard an MSF instructor say you are better off laying the bike down, if they did it was on their own accord not a practice taught by MSF.  Short of riding off a cliff you always stand a better chance of riding it out braking and swerving than laying it down, which is a guaranteed CRASH.  Not sure what you mean by barrel roll on the bike, perhaps a high-side is what you mean, and is avoidable, first by not being in that situation in the first place, should that fail a handful of throttle when the rear tire grabs the road will do alot to keeping you on the bike.  I've had 2 occasions to do this and it has worked both times, riders behind me just knew the bike was going to fling my wife and I right off.  Both were at relatively sensible speeds though, not breakneck sportbike speeds where any reaction is going to be too late.  As for T-Boning a car, I've seen friends stuck under vehicles before and I've seen them hit the sides of em, I much prefer to hit the side going as slow as I possibly can when I finally impact, rather than sliding under the vehicle completely out of control on what is happening.

Here is the MSF Motorcycle Operators Manual, please point out where it states laying down the bike is your best option.  To save you time, Crash Avoidance (notice it's not titled "Intentional Crashing") starts on page 24.

http://www.msf-usa.org/downloads/Library_Motorcycle_Operator_Manual.pdf

I'd recommend finding a different MSF course to take with a different instructor that doesn't insert their own agenda, I hate reading about people in the Rider Down section also, specially ones that owe me a tour of CA next time I get out there. 

Great summary. And I am completely in agreement, "laying down" is wrong at all times. You have no ability to steer or reduce speed when you do this. I have something to add to the "hitting the side" part: In our safe rider training we practise to stand up during braking, just before the bike would impact. I know it is hard to do on a Touring bike, and for many people it is physically not possible. However, if you can, try it in practise. The result would be that you would be more detached from the bike at impact and you literally travel a different route (e.g. over the car, instead of smashing into it) than the bike. If you and the bike go down together, you'd be almost certainly subject to be hit by the bike as well, not only the obstacle. I hope I made myself clear on this 

AND: Everybody ride safely!
Louis

[Mr. We]

Always remember the Prime Directive...


Do not hit the vehicle directly in front of you!!! 


And BB, you are always welcome at Chez Ryan 

[BadAss2]

Lesson here - counter steer. It has saved me many times in a twistie that some dumb ass engineer didn't design a curve continuous enter to exit. My Cheri learn't this in riding school and as a rookie , it saved her on a overpass aproach. Ridicule riding in the saddle as you will. The message here is counter steer in a twistie that comes up on you quickly saves your ass. There ended the lesson. As Hub would say.

[LarryB]

While returning from Sturgis 2 summers ago, remember how hot it was, we were 10 miles outside of Chillicothe MO, all in line, I sweep, cruise at 80. my rear tire lets go. Guided it to a stop. was hair raising, well not really still bald. It was the tube separated from the stem. anywho, glad I got it stopped without incident. the next 4 hours waiting for help suk'd. but it turned out good as we made friends with a repair shop who opened up on a Sunday morning to fix it. no more laced wheels for me.

[Keats]

While returning from Sturgis 2 summers ago, remember how hot it was, we were 10 miles outside of Chillicothe MO, all in line, I sweep, cruise at 80. my rear tire lets go. Guided it to a stop. was hair raising, well not really still bald. It was the tube separated from the stem. anywho, glad I got it stopped without incident. the next 4 hours waiting for help suk'd. but it turned out good as we made friends with a repair shop who opened up on a Sunday morning to fix it. no more laced wheels for me.

Riding on laced wheels (especially traveling long distance) just plain Sucks.

Tubeless tires often can be repaired with min tools and back on the road till a more permanent solution can be had. Laced wheels and flats suck!

Has anyone ever had success (even temporary) at patching a flat on laced wheels without taking the wheel off (just using a patch kit) so you could ride far enough for help?