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[Kern]

I've emailed with John of J&M several times over the past year waiting in anticipation of the new Rokker Series 4ch 500w amp and the 7.25" speakers. I called the other day to order the amp and four 7.25 speakers, when they asked year and model (11 CVO SG) the lady then transferred me to a guy in the R&D dept. He told me the only way I can use ANY of the J&M products on my 11 is to replace the factory head unit to an aftermarket. He said it is because of the 1ohm "daisy chained" speakers, head unit and amp. WTF?!?!?

I don't get it. I was under the impression you could drop in just the speakers, just the amp, or you could do both and STILL use the stock tweeters and head unit. Need some clarification. I can't see how this is right.

Any insight? Has anyone installed any of the above J&M products?

[mjb765]

I could see the guy suggesting a different amp and a re-wire of the speakers, but I can't figure out why he would even discuss the head unit. One person on here just installed speakers and he said everything was fine with the stock amp. Maybe he was just trying to sell stuff

[JCZ]

Oh man, de ja vu......this brings me back to the SEEG vs. the Ultra Classic head units.  I believe it's the exact same situation.

In that case.....the head unit on the SEEG and the Ultra Classic are two different units.  The UC had (and still has) an external amp while the SEEG had an internal amp.  The UC had speakers at a particular ohm while the SEEG speakers were a different ohm.  I wrote to a friend at the MoCo and he was able to get my question and a response directly from the people responsable for the two different stereo head units.....they told me that you could not add an additional in line amp to the SEEG.  It's all posted on this board somewhere if you want to go back to search 2003 or 2004 posts.  Probably in the SEEG section since we didn't have Electronic toy section back then.

I think two or three people tried different things....adding an additional amp, more speakers, different ohm speakers, etc. etc. all eventually turned out to be negative results unless they changed out the head unit.

I do know that on today's Ultra Classic they still have an external amp while the Street Glide has the internal amp.

I know this isn't what you're wanting to read but I hope it helps get you on the right path.  Somebody who totally knows all this stuff like nobody else I know is Jim (hd-dude)....maybe he'll chime in here and give you a more technical reply.

[mjb765]

Oh man, de ja vu......this brings me back to the SEEG vs. the Ultra Classic head units.  I believe it's the exact same situation.

In that case.....the head unit on the SEEG and the Ultra Classic are two different units.  The UC had (and still has) an external amp while the SEEG had an internal amp.  The UC had speakers at a particular ohm while the SEEG speakers were a different ohm.  I wrote to a friend at the MoCo and he was able to get my question and a response directly from the people responsable for the two different stereo head units.....they told me that you could not add an additional in line amp to the SEEG.  It's all posted on this board somewhere if you want to go back to search 2003 or 2004 posts.  Probably in the SEEG section since we didn't have Electronic toy section back then.

I think two or three people tried different things....adding an additional amp, more speakers, different ohm speakers, etc. etc. all eventually turned out to be negative results unless they changed out the head unit.

I do know that on today's Ultra Classic they still have an external amp while the Street Glide has the internal amp.

I know this isn't what you're wanting to read but I hope it helps get you on the right path.  Somebody who totally knows all this stuff like nobody else I know is Jim (hd-dude)....maybe he'll chime in here and give you a more technical reply.

Are you talking 2011 or just 2010 with the internal amp? The 2011 SESG's have the amp mounted on top of the radio right next to the IPOD module. The 2010 SESG did not have that amp.

[JCZ]

You're right......I keep forgetting that the two Street Glides are also different.

But my guess is that they're not the same amp as the Ultra Classic and possibly not the same ohm of speakers.  Like I said....Jim knows this stuff better than anybody I know.

Good luck you guys.

[Harleypingman]

Here's a thread with the 500W amp and speakers installed in two Ultras:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=62538.0

The Harman Kardon head unit in the SESG2 has the same p/n as the HK's in all of the other 2011 CVO and non-CVO fairing equipped Touring models; in fact, it's the same p/n since 2006 when HD first changed to the HK units.

It's always difficult to say the a vendor's "R&D" person is wrong.  In this case, the guy/gal was partially correct in that the harness supplied with the J&M amp won't work as designed with your SESG2.  It's designed for the Ultra that has rear speaker pods and connectors which the SESG2 doesn't have.  Similarly, the insturctions for the amp make no mention of disconnecting and removing the amp on your SESG2.  For that matter, the instructions aren't accurate for the CVO Ultras that come with the external amp under the tour pak; but, the amp can be used on those models.

Also, not sure how you would use four 7.25" speakers on an SESG2 unless you plan to replace the speaker boxes in your vented lowers with J&M's new fairing lower speaker kit; the OEM speaker boxes in the lowers won't accept the 7.25" speakers without modification.

Carl

[Keats]

The heads are all the same in recent years.

The head has an internal amp to power speakers for the street glide and only 2. (impedance is important to match for longevity)

for the Ultras they do not use pre amp "outs" (low level output) and still use the primary (head) amp out to the rear secondary tour pack amp.

This is what makes this unusual, you need a secondary amp that will take higher inputs.(not low level inputs) Impedance issues must be followed.

(impedance issues with speakers are a different issue, and must be matched to the final amp)

They did this so you could use 1 head (and primary harness) for all of the bikes.

 

[captdave]

I've emailed with John of J&M several times over the past year waiting in anticipation of the new Rokker Series 4ch 500w amp and the 7.25" speakers. I called the other day to order the amp and four 7.25 speakers, when they asked year and model (11 CVO SG) the lady then transferred me to a guy in the R&D dept. He told me the only way I can use ANY of the J&M products on my 11 is to replace the factory head unit to an aftermarket. He said it is because of the 1ohm "daisy chained" speakers, head unit and amp. WTF?!?!?

I don't get it. I was under the impression you could drop in just the speakers, just the amp, or you could do both and STILL use the stock tweeters and head unit. Need some clarification. I can't see how this is right.

Any insight? Has anyone installed any of the above J&M products?

Kern,

Have you heard anything further?  I received an email from John Lazzeroni last week saying the Rokker system could be installed into the 2011 SESG without any issues other than moving the iPod unit with their reloaction brackets (and the instructions he sent show that you must "trim"  a couple of the gauge brackets).  No mention of having to replace the head unit...

Would like to hear any news that you may get.  I may send Lazzeroni an email paraphrazing what you were told and see what his response is.

Thanks,
Dave

[Twolanerider]

I think two or three people tried different things....adding an additional amp, more speakers, different ohm speakers, etc. etc. all eventually turned out to be negative results unless they changed out the head unit.

Adding an amp to the radio that was in the SEEGs wasn't a problem.  Just had to use the unamplified side of the radio.  The HawgWired amp or Pez's and others have been used in many SEEGs. 

[Harleypingman]

Unlike other HD models, the '11 CVO SG is unique in that the speaker wire connectors use sealed connectors rather than the typical spade connectors.  TIF2 and Black Diamond have used adapters to install Hertz speakers as shown in this thread with pictures:

http://www.cvoharley.com/smf/index.php?topic=62212.0

TIF2 knows a great deal about the audio system components and wiring of the SESG2 for replacing the OEM amp and speakers; he'd be a great resource for answering questions.

Carl

 

[TIF2]

He told me the only way I can use ANY of the J&M products on my 11 is to replace the factory head unit to an aftermarket. He said it is because of the 1ohm "daisy chained" speakers, head unit and amp. WTF?!?!?

Well - obviously I wasn't a part of the conversation so I don't know what questions were asked that prompted that response. I'll assume that the R&D guy isn't a total idiot, so it may be a matter of context that prompted this response. The statement as it reads above is incorrect on a couple of levels. Here is what I think he was trying to say:

1. On the SESG2, you cannot install the ROKKER amp and use the factory wiring and factory speakers. The tech was incorrect in saying the wiring and speakers are "daisy-chained" (which means wired in series). They are actually "tapped" (wired in parallel). If you were to install their amp (and really - any aftermarket amp) the load on the new amplifier would drop to below the 2 ohm rated value and the ROKKER amp would most likely continually and constantly cut-out due to over-heating (thermal protection in the amp).

2. You cannot install the ROKKER amp and the ROKKER speakers and use all the factory speaker wiring because of the way the factory wired all the speakers in the SESG2 (as explained above).

3. You cannot add the 4-channel amp and get all 4 channels in the SESG2 with factory wiring. The rear outputs on the H/K unit are on the J28 side of the radio, only the front outputs are wired from the factory on the SESG2 (J27 side). The only connection on J28 in the SESG2 is for iPOD control. All of the speakers in the SESG2 are connected to the front outputs only of the H/K unit. You absolutely DO NOT need a new head unit. What you do need to do is to add the rear outputs to the stock H/K unit. This can be done in several ways. You can send your H/K unit out to Tony at Iron Cross (best solution) to have low-level outputs installed, buy an NUOH, or build a custom harness yourself ( I personally chose all three methods ). Then wire accordingly.

Bottom line here is that the R&D tech may have made his comments based on "easiest method" or least involved and safest for his products. No matter what, doing audio upgrades on the SESG2 is a lot more challenging than it has been on other touring models. IMHO, I would refrain from trying to "upgrade" the stock system. To me, the stock amp is pretty much a piece of junk. I suppose it's fine as used in the stock system, but using different speakers with it exposes its weakness rather quickly. I have the same opinion on the factory speakers. Mostly the issues stem from the entire amplifier/speaker system being "purpose built" by MTX. Most will think it's fine as is ... those that want a little (or a LOT ) more should just replace it all.

Again, audio is one of the most subjective things you can discuss - my opinions are my own - based on what I want out of my sound system.

Hope this helps and good luck with whatever you decide to do. PM me and we can discuss in (brain-numbing) detail.

[Kern]

First, sorry for the delayed response. Work, kids, life etc kept me away this week. This is the first chance to exhale and sit down this morning since last weekend.

After reading TIF2's response (2x) it makes sense now. The guy I spoke with did not say anything of the sort. I'm still debating on what to do. Sounds like a tremendous amount of work, time and money for it to sound "better". I've been an "audiophile" most of my life and have upgraded just about everything I have ever owned with cars and bikes. I'm not sure if this is something that would be worth it though. Four speakers, amp, custom painted speaker boxes for lowers, harnesses etc etc would make this upgrade well over $2000 all said and done.

I don't understand why HD or H&K would make such a complicated system with this bike. Why couldn't they have made it plug and play top to bottom. Grrrr.

Thanks for well thought out detailed response TIF2