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[djkak]

A better question; when did they make the first one that was right upon initial release?

We're still waiting for this one aren't we?

Yippie….more trivia; the category today is field fixes and updates. The 1965 Electra Glide was not initially equipped with a Starter Relay or primary housing vent. This resulted in issues with burnt out starter buttons and oil soaked clutches. Field updates were available for these Motorcycles. I believe that the early electric start machines were also equipped with a Delco starter which was later changed out for a Prestolite.

Early 1970 Shovels had the circuit breaker cam redesigned to inhibit the formation of holes in the pistons.

When HD introduced the 1000 cc XL in 72, the bore was increased by 3/16” yet the headbolt pattern remained unchanged. The reduced cross section of the cylinder resulted in substantial cylinder distortion and robust oil consumption. This was addressed in mid 1973 production by increasing the diameter of the headbolt pattern. The headbolts were also changed from 9/16” hex head to 3/8” 12 point.

Pre 73 XL’s with trans drive speedos were famous for purging the speedo drive components right through the lower right area of the transmission housing.  

Early 1973 XL’s were subject to frame breakage which was addressed with a field fix that involved welding in a pair of struts.

Speaking of 1973, the DOT mandated that Motorcycles manufactured after Jan 1, 1973 had to be equipped with turn signals and the tail light had to meet a new DOT spec. Sportster CH’s and some others built prior to Jan-73 did not have turn signals, and all XL’s and BT’s were equipped with the smaller style tail light used from 1955 & up. Early 1973 production XL,s had no turn signals; different tail light; different cylinders and heads and a different frame.

In 1974, there were substantial issues with the one piece, chrome plated oil control rings used in the Shovels. The chrome would peel off the oil ring, scoring the cylinder and lubricating the inside of the exhaust pipe.

I believe that 1975 was the year the rear disc brakes were fit with different master cylinder rubber components; caliper pistons and DOT-5 fluid. The early brakes would boil the DOT-3 fluid rendering the brake inoperative. I believe that there was a recall which affected 1974 and 1975 models.

In 1979 there was a tendency for XL’s to purge mainshaft 3rd gear through the back of the transmission housing.

From 1970 through 1979, it was not common for the mechanical advance mechanism to stick in the advanced position, resulting in frequent starter clutch failure.

Ratchet-lid 4 speeds were famous for “lifting” the top cover off the housing whenever a drive chain broke.  

Other than that, things were pretty good. As always, this bit of trivia and $4 will get you a fabulous cup of genuine Starbucks coffee.

djkak

[Twolanerider]

I believe that 1975 was the year the rear disc brakes were fit with different master cylinder rubber components; caliper pistons and DOT-5 fluid. The early brakes would boil the DOT-3 fluid rendering the brake inoperative. I believe that there was a recall which affected 1974 and 1975 models.

Unlike a lot who have to use it regularly I never disliked DOT5.  Though with the way it carries moisture content to low spots and then leaves it behind, or the hassles it can present in bleeding if it gets at all stirred up, the product could be a chore to work with now or maintain later.  But hey, higher boiling points are higher boiling points.  So if the need it you use what you have to.  Sure was nice to see 5.1 though.  Still don't want to spill it on paint.  But higher boiling points wet and dry and none of the hassles perhaps too occasionally presented by silicone.  Since you can chase DOT 3 or 4 with it the install/use is easy too.  Sometimes this whole progress thing actually works out.

[djkak]

Twolane,

I remember the fluid thing a little differently; my failing memory recalls that the DOT-3 had an affinity for moisture, resulting in the rust, corrosion, general crap and corruption issues which were common to the early machinery. It is my understanding that DOT-5 will not harm painted finishes or corrode internals; DOT-3 and DOT-4 will harm a painted finish.

As I recall, the DOT-5 master cylinders and calipers require different rubber components than their earlier DOT-3 or current DOT-4 counterpart’s use. DOT-5’s affinity for air does result in some loss of firmness in the controls. I believe that the timing of HD’s switch to DOT-4 is related to the offering of the anti-lock option on the Police machines. I thought I heard that DOT-5 was somewhat unsuitable for anti-lock applications.

I recall seeing an anti-lock machine awhile back. As I remember it, the controller and plumbing occupied around 30%ish of the available right saddlebag space; no more room for momma’s hair dryer. The truth be known, momma carries a lot of my crap in a big T-Bag on her machine when we are on the road.

On the subject of progress, it’s interesting to note that Lucas-Girling replaced Kelsey-Hayes, the original banana caliper folks, as the Vendor for HD’s brakes in the early 80’s.  As anyone who rode HD’s in this era knows, the Lucas-Girling brakes were a substantial improvement over the Kelsey-Hayes units. A decade earlier, the British company Lucas, was famous for producing crap-like electrical components for Auto and Motorcycle applications.  Fast forward to 2000 and Hayes is back in the game with a brake that is a substantial improvement over the Girling units.

This brake fluid business is a bunch of hocus-pocus any way! I subscribe to the “safety with steel from pedal to wheel: theory.

Have a good weekend.

djkak

[Twolanerider]

Twolane,

I remember the fluid thing a little differently; my failing memory recalls that the DOT-3 had an affinity for moisture, resulting in the rust, corrosion, general crap and corruption issues which were common to the early machinery. It is my understanding that DOT-5 will not harm painted finishes or corrode internals; DOT-3 and DOT-4 will harm a painted finish.

As I recall, the DOT-5 master cylinders and calipers require different rubber components than their earlier DOT-3 or current DOT-4 counterpart’s use. DOT-5’s affinity for air does result in some loss of firmness in the controls. I believe that the timing of HD’s switch to DOT-4 is related to the offering of the anti-lock option on the Police machines. I thought I heard that DOT-5 was somewhat unsuitable for anti-lock applications.

There are pros and cons both ways DJ.  Your right that one big benefit of the silicone based DOT5 is that it won't harm paint if you spill it.  DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 all have the potential to harm the finish.  

To me always the biggest hassle of DOT 5 was the way it entrained air.  Will carry air bubbles in the fluid when it gets stirred up even a little.  When that happens bleeding won't help because the air is not separate from the fluid.  You just have to pour carefully.  That's also why the stuff can not be used on an ABS system.  The pump in the ABS system will agitate the fluid.

Both DOT5 and the hygroscopic DOT 3, 4 or 5.1 fluids all have "water issues."  They just have different issues.  The hygroscopic fluids, as the name suggests, absorb moisture.  Any time your cylinder cover comes off, with the humidity latent before a system is closed, and in many other ways there will always be some moisture that gets inside the system.  When the fluid is hygroscopic it's absorbed in, mixed throughout, carried with the pressure system and does the kinds of damage to cylinders or line we're all familiar with.  It does that damage, that is, if the fluid is left in for a long time and the system is never flushed.  

The silicone stuff, however, doesn't absorb moisture.  Instead it carries it along entrained.  The result of that is that any water then falls off at whatever is the lowest point.  The downside to that is that from there it never comes out; even with a change in the fluid.

With DOT3, for example, the old water goes out with the fluid when you flush the system every couple of years.  With DOT5 it stays at that lowest point in the caliper (or wherever the lowest point is).  Fluid is pushed right over it.  The bleeders are up on the top of the calipers so the water won't come out with gravity either.  Uunless you remove a caliper and bleed it upside down the water just can't be removed from the system. On some cars where the caliper isn't always the only low point some water just can't be removed.

Since there are pros and cons both ways it just means there is no absolute "easy" answer.  Since the biggest hazard to the "regular" stuff is the threat of paint damage it means we just have to be careful if we use it.  The "regular" stuff never has the pain-in-the-butt bleeding issues and the other potential (but really lesser) problems that also go along with DOT5.  Since 5.1 now also has boiling points as high as DOT I've stopped messing with DOT5 even on the old classic cars.  And that was the only place I ever messed with it anyway.

Man oh man, we are iced in here this weekend DJ.  Nasty weather outside and football inside.  If it wasn't for brake fluid to talk about I'd be as bored right now as the Italian Greyhound passed out behind me  [smiley=drink.gif] .

[djkak]

Thanks for the detailed explanation, Twolane. I see that the brake fluid folks are debating amongst themselves a little. Prior to this, I was of the persuasion that silicone was the feline’s posterior, hands down.

Hydroscopic properties place new meaning on the “sealed container” warning. An open quart of DOT-4 might quickly attain moisture saturation in South Florida. The DOT-4 fluid change interval makes more sense now. I’m thinking that hydroscopic could also describe my magnetic attraction to beer.

Silicone fluid has had a good run, but I can see it may be time to shift gears. Even the Breast Implant folks are moving away from silicone in favor of materials which provide the rider with improved feel and feedback.

On the topic of old cars and brakes, the kindest thing that you could say about the brakes on my 67 Malibu was that they were offered. I had a 2DHT with a 275 HP 327/ 4 speed. If you were running over 100 mph and blasted the brakes, the front end would dive for a moment, then come right back up. If there was something in your way, you better be able to drive around it. I think Fred Flintstone has better brakes than that car did.

djkak

[Twolanerider]

On the topic of old cars and brakes, the kindest thing that you could say about the brakes on my 67 Malibu was that they were offered.

Oh man, that gave me a small beverage spew DJ.  That was good.  My old cars are all pretty much stock.  I say pretty much because while I like that look and feel I make concessions to better audio and to brakes.  They've all got disk.  The vette and the t-bird on the front, the big 409 Impala will have them all the way around when it's done same as the 396 66 El Camino.  The old brakes we used to survive just make you pucker when you think about them today.

Man, if you stop and think about it though the brakes weren't even the worst of it.  If you ever get the chance hop behind the wheel of some big heavy 50s or 60s vintage car with a good sized motor whose owner is so in to "vintage" that he still runs nylon or bias ply tires on it.  I swear you can't keep 'em between the white lines.  How we ever survived being teenagers driving that stuff the way it got driven I have no idea   !

[Twolanerider]

Silicone fluid has had a good run, but I can see it may be time to shift gears. Even the Breast Implant folks are moving away from silicone in favor of materials which provide the rider with improved feel and feedback.

I want the job as "Application Materials System Tester."  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[djkak]

I want the job as "Application Materials System Tester."  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

I’m thinking that field inspector would also be a rewarding career; although getting paid with a sack full of singles might be a bit of a pain.

djkak