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Author Topic: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS  (Read 18764 times)

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RedDevil

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2007, 10:13:47 AM »

Quote
[highlight]I was running at 270 to 275 degrees.  May sound strange, but shanging to Amsoil, I dropped to 235/240[/highlight].
I changed the pipes, AC, and SERT'd my ride right out of the dealership.  When I bought the digital oil stick, I rode the bike for about 100 miles after putting it in.  Ambient temperature outside was about 55 degrees.  I didn't do much stop and go driving as it was a Sunday and traffic was relatively light between this particular dealership and my home.  When I got home and shut the bike down, I immediately checked the temp of the oil and the dipstick read 215.  I've since had it stuck in heavy traffic with ambient outside air temp up in the mid 60's and the highest I've seen it is 255 degrees.  I haven't had a chance to do any temp checks since I've had the 1K and dyno done because the weather here hasn't been the greatest. (Just had snow yesterday) So I don't know how much cooler/hotter, if any change at all, it will run.  I'm running Syn3 in it and don't have a baseline of how hot the bike ran before I went to true duals and SEAC to let it breathe a little better and had the EFI mapped differently, as my bike was not ridden with the stock pipes...I have a set of stock pipes sitting in the basement with 7 miles on them...that's what the bike had on it coming off the truck.  I have almost 1200 mies on the ride now and the rear cylinder badge has not yellowed like a lot of folks have been reporting that still have the stock exhaust sytem on.  So, I can only assume that the rear jug is running cooler and the engine is running cooler overall.  I know my right leg appreciates the lack of heat that my old Ultra gave me...I kept the stock headers on that one.  So far, knock on wood, I haven't seen any of the issues with my 110" that has been listed in the forum, but I do have the seven year warranty, so maybe that was a wise decision on my part.

Cheers  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red
« Last Edit: January 22, 2007, 10:15:19 AM by RedDevil »
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bikerdude

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2007, 01:29:30 PM »

We all share your pain but there is a cure. I have installed true duals a air cleaner and a power commander and the heat issue is gone.

Bikerdude
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2007, 01:59:28 PM »

LD was horrendous at first with a stock 96" Now it's a 103, running an oil cooler, with Amsoil and an average tune of about 12.5 / 1 via a new SERT. Runs about 218 to 228 and the heat problem from the rear pipe is all but gone. Don't want to get rid of the stock head pipes till I see what folks have to say about running true-duals with the 02 bungs.

B B
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skyglide

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2007, 07:13:06 PM »

Quote
I was running at 270 to 275 degrees.  May sound strange, but shanging to Amsoil, I dropped to 235/240.
Dont let Bagger hear you talking up AMSOIL [smiley=coolblue.gif] I never had any heat issues or strange noises from day one. Before day one installed d&d pipes,air cleaner and custom mapping. One word of advice scrapp the factory pipes. All the heat porblems will disapear.
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Hoist!

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2007, 07:19:59 PM »

Quote
Dont let Bagger hear you talking up AMSOIL [smiley=coolblue.gif] I never had any heat issues or strange noises from day one. Before day one installed d&d pipes,air cleaner and custom mapping. [highlight]One word of advice scrapp the factory pipes. All the heat porblems will disapear.[/highlight]

There are absolutely no heat problems on an '07 110" (when it's 23 deg outside!). Thanks for your recommendation SC. I'm doing the same thing (I have to wait a week, but only rode once so far anyway). I'm trying the SPO's on stock headpipes with a PC first to see how bad, before ordering TD's. Did you try stock headpipes first, with the A/C, mufflers and remap? I figure I can always add the TD's but the breathing and remapping is immediately mandatory! ;) Hoist! 8-)
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skyglide

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2007, 07:31:13 PM »

Quote

There are absolutely no heat problems on an '07 110" (when it's 23 deg outside!). Thanks for your recommendation SC. I'm doing the same thing (I have to wait a week, but only rode once so far anyway). I'm trying the SPO's on stock headpipes with a PC first to see how bad, before ordering TD's. Did you try stock headpipes first, with the A/C, mufflers and remap? I figure I can always add the TD's but the breathing and remapping is immediately mandatory! ;) Hoist! 8-)
My Dyno man said the colder the air temp the worse the heat issue would get without some remapping??? No expert on that one.

Took all factory pipes off. By the way seen you pics of the new ride looks great [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif] I would of picked the blue RK but all my vehicles are blue.
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RATKING

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2007, 10:04:47 PM »

 [smiley=soapbox.gif]  Here is what is going on!   [smiley=soapbox.gif]

 Harley used the solenoid closed left exhaust muffler system in 2006 also.  The intent was to direct the exhaust from both cylinders through the right catalyst muffler for emissions purposes, period.  It clearly choked off the exhaust for the majority of your riding.  The left side muffler solenoid would only open up at RPMs in excess of 4000, then it would act like the exhaust of 2005's and earlier.  Obviously the 2006s would benefit from disabling the solenoid and leaving it open, or simply replace the mufflers with good flowing pieces.  Really, you gotta get that chit of the bike.

For 2007, again as a concession to the EPA, Harley upped the ante and leaned out the Air/Fuel ratio even further to reduce emissions.  This is what is really causing the heat issues with the 2007 bikes.  It is not just with the 110's, the 96's have the same problem.  You absolutely have to undo the emissions concessions that the MOCO has agreed to and get the bike on a pre-2007 standard as soon as you get it.  For the longevity of the motor, it has to be done.

The rear cylinder on a Harley engine has always run hotter, simply because it does not get the same cooling air.  The rear cylinder is in direct alignment with the front; it does not get a direct blast of cold air as the front cylinder does, and in fact gets pre-heated air from the front cylinder, hence the problem.  In the old FLH days, Harley used to alter the cam timing between the front and rear cylinders to compensate for the naturally hotter rear cylinder.  The valve timing on the rear cylinder was milder, to generate less heat.   This worked to some degree, and was necessary with the use of carbs.  But with fuel injection, you had the ability to adjust the timing and fuel for each cylinder individually.  Check you SERT maps between the front and rear cylinders and you will see what I mean.  But with the latest EPA concession, the MOCO has gone too far.  Motors are getting hurt, and bad.

It would be naive to simply take the stance, well; I have an extended warranty so the problem is on them.  It is actually your problem.  You bought an inherently defective piece of chit.  The motors are self-destructing.  You can play these games on a water-cooled bike, but not on an air-cooled motor.  You are flirting with disaster.  I blame Harley MOCO for this.  They should have tested the EPA operating parameters they were agreeing to before they released the bikes for the 2007 model year.  These motors will not hold up.  You have to take corrective action immediately.  Heat is your major enemy on an air-cooled bike, and the MOCO just handed you all a stick of dynamite with a very short fuse.  Ignore the issue, and the problem will definitely present itself; directly or indirectly, the problem is yours.  Harley did the same crap with their cam tensioning issues on the Twin Cam.  This chit is a major no-no.  You do not treat your loyal customers this way.

What do you do with your 2007?  Regardless as to whether you want more performance or not, you have to get the stock factory exhaust off.  You have to eliminate the solenoid system on the left muffler, even on a stock bike.  If you want more performance, here is your opportunity to improve the exhaust.  Then you need to richen the Air/Fuel mixture, whether its with a SERT, Power Commander, Thunderrmax, etc. to improve performance and cool things down.  This in essence will have undone Harley MOCO's  EPA concessions and will have cooled things down, improved performance, gas mileage, and above all, significantly lengthened the life of your motor.  If you want to add performance of top of that, do the air cleaners, custom dual exhaust, cams, etc.  But, even on a stock bike, you have got to get rid of the heat.

My personal friend is a machinist, and we rebuild a lot of motors on a regular basis.  The stock Harley had enough problems with the rear cylinder operating at higher temperatures even before this EPA Bull Chit.  Now it is a disaster.   Often what happens is that guys will overheat the rear cylinder, and the rings will not seat.  Compression is down, the cylinder walls are scored, and there is significant blow-down because the rings did not seat.  The rear cylinder loses compression and uses oil; seen it too many times.   Time will tell.  Personally, I would do the SERT, exhaust, and air cleaner changes immediately on purchase, prior to doing any damage to the motor.  You cannot undo the rear cylinder damage once it has occurred.  You have to prevent it up front.

I will make a prediction, that with the MOCO's willingness to cow-tow to the Feds, that the change to water-cooling will happen much quicker than you think.  Otherwise the motors will not hold up.  This is a major turning point here.  The Harley air-cooled motor will suffer the same fate that Volkswagens air-cooled Beetle suffered in the 1970's; it died.  Get your air cooled Harley while you can, immediately correct what Harley has done to them, and hold on to it.  You have an instant classic Harley, one that will shortly be going the way of the dinosaurs.  Get your vintage piece now and enjoy it.  The MOCO is in the process of destroying its legend, all in the name of progress.


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RedDevil

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2007, 10:26:39 PM »

Quote
[smiley=soapbox.gif]  Here is what is going on!   [smiley=soapbox.gif]

 Harley used the solenoid closed ... I will make a prediction, that with the [highlight]MOCO's willingness to cow-tow to the Feds[/highlight], that the change to water-cooling will happen much quicker than you think.  Otherwise the motors will not hold up.  This is a major turning point here.  The Harley air-cooled motor will suffer the same fate that Volkswagens air-cooled Beetle suffered in the 1970's; it died.  Get your air cooled Harley while you can, immediately correct what Harley has done to them, and hold on to it.  You have an instant classic Harley, one that will shortly be going the way of the dinosaurs.  Get your vintage piece now and enjoy it.  The MOCO is in the process of destroying its legend, all in the name of progress.
RatKing,
While I agree with most everything you said, I disagree in your statement that the MoCo is cow-towing to the Feds.  They don't have any choice.  Believe it or not, the EPA has been more lenient with the MoCo and working with them to lower emissions at a rate that the MoCo can keep up with.  Granted the EPA has gone too far with motorcycles now, but that's not the MoCo's fault.  They don't have any choice, they either go with the EPA's mandates or they go out of business.  Is this the death-nell of the air cooled engine?  The MoCo has seen the writing on the wall for quite a few years now, hence the development of the V-Rod, and from what I've read, potentially a water-cooled Sportster for 2008, to, rumor has it, they are working on and testing an 1800cc version of the revolution engine dressed up as an Electra Glide.  It's just a matter of time.  The "tree huggers" are going to win, even though motorcycles contribute to less than 5% of the total hydrocarbon emissions.  The auto manufacturers think it's unfair that motorcycles aren't made to conform to the same standards as they have to.  Even though there is a gross imbalance in the ratio of cars/trucks to motorcycles on the road.  Don't blame the MoCo for trying to delay and work against the inevitable demise of the air-cooled engine.  The only way to reverse the process and even the playing field for motorcycles, is to petition your Congressmen in to telling the EPA to rethink these assinine emission rules for motorcycles.  I guarantee you, if it wasn't mandated, the MoCo wouldn't do it.    Just my $.02
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red
« Last Edit: January 24, 2007, 10:27:29 PM by RedDevil »
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SPIDERMAN

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #23 on: January 24, 2007, 10:38:28 PM »

Off topic I know, but the term is kow-tow pronounced ko to (long O both words) which means to bow when greeting another as the Japanese do.The depth of the bow is relative to the social (or professional) position of the person being bowed to. Friends greeting friends enchange little head bobs, a young guy out of college applying for a job would about touch his forehead to the floor when meeting the head of the dept or company he was applying for work with.

Okay, you guys can get back to your ranting now  ;)

B B  
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RedDevil

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #24 on: January 24, 2007, 10:50:56 PM »

Quote
Off topic I know, but the term is kow-tow pronounced ko to (long O both words) which means to bow when greeting another as the Japanese do.The depth of the bow is relative to the social (or professional) position of the person being bowed to. Friends greeting friends enchange little head bobs, a young guy out of college applying for a job would about touch his forehead to the floor when meeting the head of the dept or company he was applying for work with.

Okay, you guys can get back to your ranting now  ;)

B B  
Spidey,
Alright, uncle!!!!!  But I bet the MoCo, still doesn't "bow deeply" to the EPA, not willingly at least....LOL
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red
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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2007, 06:33:09 AM »

The government expects ALL of us to bow deeply, but we are supposed to turn around first!  [smiley=oops.gif]

Sorry, working on my taxes... >:(
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sooiee

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2007, 02:28:05 PM »

I guess all I can say is I don't have any heat issues as long as I'm moving.  You all must be doing parade duty or something???  
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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #27 on: January 25, 2007, 03:35:47 PM »

Quote
RatKing,
While I agree with most everything you said, I disagree in your statement that the MoCo is cow-towing to the Feds.  They don't have any choice.  Believe it or not, the EPA has been more lenient with the MoCo and working with them to lower emissions at a rate that the MoCo can keep up with.  Granted the EPA has gone too far with motorcycles now, but that's not the MoCo's fault.  They don't have any choice, they either go with the EPA's mandates or they go out of business.  Is this the death-nell of the air cooled engine?  The MoCo has seen the writing on the wall for quite a few years now, hence the development of the V-Rod, and from what I've read, potentially a water-cooled Sportster for 2008, to, rumor has it, they are working on and testing an 1800cc version of the revolution engine dressed up as an Electra Glide.  It's just a matter of time.  The "tree huggers" are going to win, even though motorcycles contribute to less than 5% of the total hydrocarbon emissions.  The auto manufacturers think it's unfair that motorcycles aren't made to conform to the same standards as they have to.  Even though there is a gross imbalance in the ratio of cars/trucks to motorcycles on the road.  Don't blame the MoCo for trying to delay and work against the inevitable demise of the air-cooled engine.  The only way to reverse the process and even the playing field for motorcycles, is to petition your Congressmen in to telling the EPA to rethink these assinine emission rules for motorcycles.  I guarantee you, if it wasn't mandated, the MoCo wouldn't do it.    Just my $.02
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Agree with what you say, Red...however...

Emissions are a real threat, and are not going away anytime soon, so the EPA HAS to do something.  The MOCO has no options with the way things stand now.  Personally, I think there should be some balance to the equation, taking into account the amount of allowable emissions vs. the fuel economy of the vehicle which equates to the VOLUME of bad chit coming out of the exhaust.  If they would do that, the A/C Vtwin would be around for a while longer.  Otherwise, it's doomed...just a matter of time.

Geez...an 1800 Revo...it'll come out of the box with 160HP and 120FPT.  Talk about gettin' around a truck in a hurry  :o If it's stroked a bit, it would even sound a bit more like an A/C V, although for those who have not heard a Revo with a set of Rineharts on it...it's pretty close at idle, but you'll go deaf at speed.  Lower center of gravity with the tank in the frame...frame mounted fairing...fat a$$ed tire on the rear...6 speaker 200W stereo system...completely integrated communication system, without wires to the helmet...6 speed gearbox, at least.  Hey, doesn't sound too bad to me...

Just like there's nothing that is quite like a HD A/C Vtwin, there's nothing like a Revo engine either...it's still distinctively HD.
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RedDevil

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #28 on: January 25, 2007, 08:18:00 PM »

Quote

Agree with what you say, Red...however...

Emissions are a real threat, and are not going away anytime soon, so the EPA HAS to do something.  The MOCO has no options with the way things stand now.  Personally, I think there should be some balance to the equation, taking into account the amount of allowable emissions vs. the fuel economy of the vehicle which equates to the VOLUME of bad chit coming out of the exhaust.  If they would do that, the A/C Vtwin would be around for a while longer.  Otherwise, it's doomed...just a matter of time.

Geez...an 1800 Revo...it'll come out of the box with 160HP and 120FPT.  Talk about gettin' around a truck in a hurry  :o If it's stroked a bit, it would even sound a bit more like an A/C V, although for those who have not heard a Revo with a set of Rineharts on it...it's pretty close at idle, but you'll go deaf at speed.  Lower center of gravity with the tank in the frame...frame mounted fairing...fat a$$ed tire on the rear...6 speaker 200W stereo system...completely integrated communication system, without wires to the helmet...6 speed gearbox, at least.  Hey, doesn't sound too bad to me...

Just like there's nothing that is quite like a HD A/C Vtwin, there's nothing like a Revo engine either...it's still distinctively HD.
TCnBham,
I couldn't agree with you more.  :)  And that Revo Ultra Classic that you described, sounds pretty slick, even though it is water-cooled.  ;)  
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red
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RATKING

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Re: HOT CVO HEAT NOT LOOKS
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2007, 08:55:39 AM »

Hi Red,

I do not know about Sympathy for the MOCO.  They have a history of bringing deficiently designed products to the market, and letting their customers do the product testing for them; then leaving their customers hang in the wind with subsequent warranty issues.  If I have sympathy for anybody, it’s us.

Let’s just look at the recent experience with the introduction of the twin cam engine.  The guys that bought 1999 Twin Cam bikes had the issues with the cam bearings failing and cam bolts breaking.  When this happened, they would literally trash the engine, sending metal throughout.  The MOCO would only do the repairs after you trashed your beloved Harley, and they said not to worry because the damage was limited to the camshaft compartment.  Bull Chit, that metal went throughout the motor.  Literally destroying it, with metal impregnated in the pistons and cylinder walls, completely scoring everything up. Engines literally trashed.  But Harley would not cover that, only fix the cam issue on a trashed engine, gee thanks. This whole scenario was clearly documented in the series of articles in American Iron Magazine.

Look at the issue still going on with the cam tensioners.  It is a well documented problem, people have had major issues with it, and yet Harley MOCO will not preventatively fix anything.  They will fix it after the damage is done.  But then only put new shoes in, replace the oil pump, and then bolt it back together.  The other damage is still there; remember it has already been documented that particulate does not stay contained in the cam compartment. Again, read the tech articles in American Iron Magazine; you will not get the straight scoop from Harley.

Just look at the concern everybody has about being denied warranty claims because they changed the seat on their bike.  If this was any other product or service you bought, and you were treated this way, you would simply take it back, demand a refund, and go somewhere else to spend your hard-earned money.  Harley has taken our patronage and loyalty for granted.  If they significantly alter our beloved air-cooled V-twin with the classic look and sound that we all love, they will see how quickly they piss their loyal fans off.

And regarding the adaptations that Harley has had to make to conform to the EPA, it can be done correctly.  Look at the Suzuki M109R (109ci V-twin), the Yamaha Royal Star (113ci V-twin), and the Kawasaki Vulcan VN 2000 (125ci V-twin), and the big Honda, etc.  These bikes all run great, and do not have built-in time-bomb issues that we Harley owners seem so willingly to accept.  Yes, I have friends that own these machines and they are fully aware of the Harley issues.  Chit, I am supposed to riding the Motorcyle Flagship, envy of other bikers, but they do not have these issues; no ticking time-bombs.  They do not have to worry about spending big time and expense to undo deficient engineering and quality control.  What is that all about? I am not going to buy a new machine, pay a hefty premium for it, and know that it is self-destructing on the virgin ride home.  I am getting fed up with it.

And before anybody thinks I am too jaded or the Harley Anti-Christ, let it be known that I have a collection of 16 vintage Pans and Shovels, and use my Screaming Eagles as riders.  I love these bikes, and dread the day that they no longer exist in the traditional Harley image so clearly burned in my mind.
 [smiley=soapbox.gif] [smiley=soapbox.gif]
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