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[RJ749]

Hi Red,
I do not know about Sympathy for the MOCO.  [highlight]And regarding the adaptations that Harley has had to make to conform to the EPA, it can be done correctly[/highlight].  Look at the Suzuki M109R (109ci V-twin), the Yamaha Royal Star (113ci V-twin), and the Kawasaki Vulcan VN 2000 (125ci V-twin), and the big Honda, etc.  These bikes all run great, and do not have built-in time-bomb issues that we Harley owners seem so willingly to accept.   [smiley=soapbox.gif] [smiley=soapbox.gif]

RK,

I don't disagree with you, I had a 99 RK and a 2000 UC and road every mile wondering if I was going to grenade (never did) but I also bought warranties on those in case I kept them more than a couple years.

However, with regard to the emission minutia there is one glaring difference in the examples you use for it being done correctly; by personal experience with another "icon" we all will someday face a change in our beloved MoCo product in the same way that traditionalist Porsche owners did in the late 90's when they had to start packing anti-freeze.

Royal Star  79-cubic-inch (1294cc) liquid-cooled, DOHC, 70-degree V-4

Kawasaki    Four-stroke, liquid-cooled, DOHC, four valve per cylinder,   1,352 cc

Honda        Liquid-cooled, 52° V-twin, SOHC, 3-valves per cylinder   1,312 cc

Since the EPA drives emissions and they aren't getting any less strict, we may well face h20 in our future in order to meet stricter guidelines.  The other large bore mfr's didn't and don't have the heritage we do and therefore don't have to face the loyal owners that the MoCo does when they make a change.

While the V-Rod was developed to expand the offerings of HD, they went to the number one automotive design/research facility in the world to build it; Porsche's Weissach facility in the hills outside of Zuffenhausen.  Porsche had already bitten this bullet and watercooled its "boxer" style engine which was air cooled since the 40's.  Everyone howled it would be the end of Porsche as we know it.  Some feel it was, Porsche was selling roughly 15,000 units a year in the US, including Boxster which was already water cooled in 1997.  But today, Porsche sells 40,000 plus units a year in the US, approximately 50% of the world wide production, granted some of these are not the traditional boxer engine equipped sport cars, but clearly the transition to water cooled engines without giving up any of the efficiency of the air cooled engine worked.

Somewhere in Milwaukie (or Weissach) you can imagine there are engineers tooling around on a Hog that has green slime running through its veins.  

I might also point out that with the water came performance:

993 Engine: 3.4 litre normally aspirated air cooled VarioRam engine producing 285 hp

996 Engine: 3.4 litre normally aspirated liquid cooled producing 300 hp

Once they had the emissions/cooling figured out they not only had gained the 15 hp they went bigger since the engine cooling and emissions were no longer an issue:

997 Engine:  3.6 litre normally aspirated  325 hp
997 S Eng:   3.8 litre normally aspirated  355 hp

All of this by way of explanation that like it or not, we either live with the MoCo struggle to get a handle on the air cooled cooling/emission issue to maintain the heritage or fold our cards and deal with the slime.  However, if slime equals hp and cooling (and reliability) I am not so sure it would ultimately be a bad thing once we all got over it.

Some of us never would (get over it) and our air cooled bikes would instantly be classics and worth more money.  Many would make the change and be happy for it.

If the solution to many of the emission related issues is to get wet and the result is reliability and increased horsepower...............I for one, may just have to get wet. [smiley=soapbox.gif]

[RedDevil]

Hi Red,

I do not know about Sympathy for the MOCO.  They have a history of bringing deficiently designed products to the market, and letting their customers do the product testing for them; then leaving their customers hang in the wind with subsequent warranty issues.  If I have sympathy for anybody, it’s us.

Let’s just look at the recent experience with the introduction of the twin cam engine.  The guys that bought 1999 Twin Cam bikes had the issues with the cam bearings failing and cam bolts breaking.  When this happened, they would literally trash the engine, sending metal throughout.  The MOCO would only do the repairs after you trashed your beloved Harley, and they said not to worry because the damage was limited to the camshaft compartment.  Bull Chit, that metal went throughout the motor.  Literally destroying it, with metal impregnated in the pistons and cylinder walls, completely scoring everything up. Engines literally trashed.  But Harley would not cover that, only fix the cam issue on a trashed engine, gee thanks. This whole scenario was clearly documented in the series of articles in American Iron Magazine.

Look at the issue still going on with the cam tensioners.  It is a well documented problem, people have had major issues with it, and yet Harley MOCO will not preventatively fix anything.  They will fix it after the damage is done.  But then only put new shoes in, replace the oil pump, and then bolt it back together.  The other damage is still there; remember it has already been documented that particulate does not stay contained in the cam compartment. Again, read the tech articles in American Iron Magazine; you will not get the straight scoop from Harley.

Just look at the concern everybody has about being denied warranty claims because they changed the seat on their bike.  If this was any other product or service you bought, and you were treated this way, you would simply take it back, demand a refund, and go somewhere else to spend your hard-earned money.  Harley has taken our patronage and loyalty for granted.  If they significantly alter our beloved air-cooled V-twin with the classic look and sound that we all love, they will see how quickly they piss their loyal fans off.

And regarding the adaptations that Harley has had to make to conform to the EPA, it can be done correctly.  Look at the Suzuki M109R (109ci V-twin), the Yamaha Royal Star (113ci V-twin), and the Kawasaki Vulcan VN 2000 (125ci V-twin), and the big Honda, etc.  These bikes all run great, and do not have built-in time-bomb issues that we Harley owners seem so willingly to accept.  Yes, I have friends that own these machines and they are fully aware of the Harley issues.  Chit, I am supposed to riding the Motorcyle Flagship, envy of other bikers, but they do not have these issues; no ticking time-bombs.  They do not have to worry about spending big time and expense to undo deficient engineering and quality control.  What is that all about? I am not going to buy a new machine, pay a hefty premium for it, and know that it is self-destructing on the virgin ride home.  I am getting fed up with it.

And before anybody thinks I am too jaded or the Harley Anti-Christ, let it be known that I have a collection of 16 vintage Pans and Shovels, and use my Screaming Eagles as riders.  I love these bikes, and dread the day that they no longer exist in the traditional Harley image so clearly burned in my mind.
 [smiley=soapbox.gif] [smiley=soapbox.gif]

Ratking,
Please don't misconstrue my words as sympathy for the MoCo.  I wasn't saying we should sympathize with the company.  I was just stating that HD and thier working with the EPA is one of the reasons that the emmission standards for motorcycles have lagged behind automobiles.  (Is that a design problem caused by HD, could be [smiley=nixweiss.gif], I'm not an expert in that field by any means.) As far as the cam chain tensioner problems, I never had any of those issues with my ride, so I can't agree or disagree with you on that and have to go with the reported issues.  My 02 worked great and I had over 30K on it when I traded it in on the 07 Jester.  Every manufacturer has problems when a newly designed model year comes out.  The technology turnover in today's world it just too quick to do the extensive R&D that used be done in years gone by.  From what I've read, Harley still tries to test new engines for 2-3 years of extensive road testing before introducing it to the public.  Face it, they're still using an engine based on a 50 year-old design.  The Japanese are basically running new up-to-date designs compared to Harley because they are relatively new to the v-twin market.  But would you be happy with an air-cooled engine from HD that didn't look like an HD?  Look at the mixed response the V-Rod motor gets, even to this day, after it's been out for awhile now and we've all gotten a chance to get used to it.  It's still a split opinion on them bad boys.  We know the pitfalls of the Harleys, but yet we keep buying them and like you said, the MoCo knows that, but they always seem to do just enough to keep us coming back.  JMHO.
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red  

[UltraPolecat]

I am probably one of the guys that makes it bad for everybody else.  I bleed Harley blood and have for many years.  I can appreciate a fine machine made by a Euro or Jap company but I am not inspired by them.  As long as a solution to the problems can be found I am well satisfied.  My Milk Dud paint, my porous rear cylinder, my fried pipes and mufflers all fixed and now all good.  I still pause and stare at that black witch every time I walk by it.  

Can't explain it.  Just know it.  Would a V-Rod do it?  Sure.  A liquid Ultra, sure.  There is a place for old school, but change is coming for sure.  Its just life...Just let it be a Harley. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[RJ749]

 There is a place for old school, but change is coming for sure.  Its just life...Just let it be a Harley. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

That's really all that needs to be said on the subject U P. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

[RedDevil]

 There is a place for old school, but change is coming for sure.  Its just life...Just let it be a Harley. [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]

Couldn't of said it better myself.
cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Hoist!]

Not me. Air-cooled, pushrod, V-twin, HD. Don't care if I ever buy another new bike again. I have 3 of them suited for different types of riding. I'll possibly sell or trade one for another new one. But if they stop making them, I'll keep these for the rest of my life. No qualms about it! Old school all the way. I love dinosaurs! Hoist! 8-)

[GC_Super]

A water cooled version of my current bike wouldn't hurt my feelings one little bit. Tuck the radiator between the lower fairings and you wouldn't even notice it. Progress and change are going to happen, might as well live with it.  Or ride old school forever. Whatever makes you happy.  

[skyglide]

I would be willing to try that water thing and some anti slip brakes. Nothing wrong with old school but there's room for much improvement

[UltraPolecat]

Yeah, I think they could make a tourer LC and it would be great.  I do like my little Sportster to be AC.  They don't overheat over 100 MPH!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  Guess I could give a VRod a try....

[Midnight Rider]

Yeah, I think they could make a tourer LC and it would be great.  I do like my little Sportster to be AC.  They don't overheat over 100 MPH!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]  Guess I could give a VRod a try....

The V is a blast...the first time you're sitting in traffic and the fans come on, it's kind of weird, but other than that, you never know the radiator is there.

A water cooled big twin would not necessarily be a bad thing...keep the basic design/feel/sound.  After all, the fins on the cylinders on the Revo engine are just there for looks...no reason the same could not be true on a TC.

[UltraPolecat]

Wow, fins just for show.  Never even thunk it!! [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

Makes perfect sense!

[Jack]

Gentlemen,

I was at the Dlrship that has the bike FXSTSSE  [smiley=banana.gif] [smiley=jalapeno.gif] [smiley=orange.gif] [smiley=pineapple.gif] [smiley=pepper.gif] [smiley=mango.gif] [smiley=cucumber.gif] [smiley=apple.gif] in the color I want.  Still working the deal.

Purposely talked to the service mgr about this HEAT problem.  He was in the dark about any problems in this area or won't admit it.

While searching for HD Financials, I found myself in Amzoil comparing Oils.  If you haven't been there, I suggest you do it.  Major comparison on HD oils and theirs in all areas of the bike.

As I have heard in many arenas, SORTING OUT, I believe is the term.  Looks like this should be done by anyone capable of doing so on 07 SE models.

Semper Fi,   Jack

[JCZ]

While searching for HD Financials, I found myself in Amzoil comparing Oils.  If you haven't been there, I suggest you do it.  Major comparison on HD oils and theirs in all areas of the bike.

Yep, HD Financials and motor oil...........I'd expect to find those two together. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

[greglyon]

Don't mean to hijack this thread but could someone explain how water cooling an engine brings emissions down as well as increase performance.

[VaEagle]

Hi IROAR,
I am by no means a mechanic or engineer but from what I have read over the years there are several reasons for a water-cooled engine burning cleaner.
First it can be made to closer tolerances so there is less oil blowby.The water-cooling can take the increased heat from parts rubbing closer together.
Second the air-fuel ratios can be a little different and combustion can be made a little more complete somehow.Less  improper detonation and unburnt fuel expelled.
As far as increasing performance I would think of it as ,an amount of gas has the potential for X amount of horspower at 100% burn and transfer and anything that prevents the 100% burn rate or interferes with the transfer of that power means less performance to us.
Examples would be if the gas is not completely burned but escapes through leaky valves,gaskets,piston rings etc. That potential power is lost.Could also be oil in the combustion area etc. So the closer you get to 100% combustion and 100% transfer of the energy to mechanical horsepower you will get improved performance.
This is one reason I have heard that Harley decided years ago not to go to a shaft drive on their bikes.(They had a model in WWII for African desert) They lost too much horsepower in the drivetrain so they stayed with chains and belts to deliver more horsepower to the road.
I'm sure cost came into play too.
I'm sure one of the site experts will chime in soon to provide a better answer. 8-)