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[CVOmedic]

Hey guys its been a while and I hope everyone has been doing well.  Was also hoping someone might have a solution to my heat problem.  I just loaded a new map from the tts software and have about 2.5  hrs worth of vtuning and the bike is running pretty dang well with the exception of excessive heat.  I have loaded other maps which have run much cooler but the performance was not as strong.  Does anyone have any suggestions as to what I need to tweak in the tune to get some lower temps?  My heat management system comes on regularly if I am stopped for too long.

2012 CVO SG
TTS - original version
Map - EUJ-009-03-A0.mt8
fullsac x-pipe B
Thunderheader thundercone slip-ons
All stock otherwise

Thanks for any help!!!

[CVOmedic]

Surely someone has some thoughts. Doc, Steve....anybody?  I'd really like some guidance before I start monkeying around with the Lamba table - or any others for that matter!

Also, I may eventually look at trying another dyno tune. Anyone know of any strong TTS tuners in/around Charlotte NC?

Thanks!

[Ridgerunr]

What do you consider excessive? My 2014 will show oil temps of 245 deg. F in 85-90 deg ambient temps. Synthetic oil should handle those temps well.

[CVOmedic]

What do you consider excessive? My 2014 will show oil temps of 245 deg. F in 85-90 deg ambient temps. Synthetic oil should handle those temps well.

Well, I don't really know what is truly acceptable as far as temperatures go, so my statement of "excessive" is more of an "in comparison to" other maps I have tried and comments left by other members of having nearly zero heat problems after opening up the exhaust system and adding a tuner; if that makes sense.  Looking at vtune data, I will hit engine temps of 300-315 deg. F while at idle.  I have not collected any data after loading the final iteration back to the ECM after vtuning but after loading the final tune, I noted that the skip-fire mode is activated regularly which would indicate engine temps of at least 311 F.  This mainly concerns me as I have heard others say that their heat management systems rarely engage after having made the same upgrades as I did.

Lastly, and again more in comparison to other maps and comments, I find myself roasting while sitting on the bike if I am stuck in traffic or idling for too long.  If this is normal then I'll relax and not worry about it so much,  but my main concern is damaging the motor with exposure to high temps.

All of this occurring in the same ambient temps you mentioned (85-90 F).  Which is actually another concern as we are headed to Key West in Sept and lord knows how hot it will be there!  If I am having heat concerns now, my bike may just melt altogether down there!

[CVODON]

The engine management system is ambient temp regulated. Not engine heat on Rushmore bikes. My Eitms  has never been on, but the engine coolant fans have not been running much and it has been 90 or above for a month or so here  and I have stock tune with only current change being Fulsac 1.75 cores. But if you have the managment system turned on, it is going to operate based on outside temps regardless of how you tune.

[Ridgerunr]

Sitting in traffic, will definitely roast the jewels. I'm of the school that a dyno tune is better than self tuners. Timing in addition to afr is adjusted at all throttle positions (if the tuner takes the time). Don't know of any tuners around Charlotte. I took one of my bikes from Tn. to Doc, well worth the trip. 46 mpg, and not any heat problems while moving.

[RonandJanet]

I end up sitting in traffic a lot and my bike gets hot!  My right leg will get very hot!!  The ETIMS starts up all the time. My bike was delivered with the ETIMS turned off but I turned it on to help with the temps. Many times when I get to work in the morning the fans are on (I can't hear them when I am riding).  I had hoped this bike would be cooler than my 2010 but it isn't. I will say this is with the stock mapping and other than slip ons she is stock. I am planning on putting Fulsac headers and a TTS tune to help reduce the heat (20 to 30%) and improve performance. 

[HOGMIKE]

I live in SoCal and ride in the desert often.
My last 3 bikes were modified and tuned by a guy who also lives, rides, works in the desert.
His dyno room also gets hot sometimes.
My bikes all run just fine (taking into account that the ambient air is over 100).
My wet head has the etims turned "off", as my rads seem to take care of the engine temps.
IMHO, if the ambient is over 100 you are going to get heat, no way around it.
 

[CVOmedic]

CVODON-

Maybe that is something new for the water cooled engines as far as the EITMS engaging based on ambient temps but I am fairly certain that on at least the 2012s the system engages based on engine temps.  I can't understand why the system would engage based on ambient temps at all.

Ridgerunr-

I may bave to figure out a way to squeeze an extra day into our key west run so that I can make it over to Doc's. Messing with timing or anything else on that level is far beyond my comfort zone. I was hoping just a few tweaks to the lambda table might at least get me going in the right direction. I am glad to hear though that it is not just me cooking while sitting in traffic.

R&J-
Thanks for the feedback. Hate to hear the water cooling bikes aren't running much if any cooler. Your reply also points out part of my concern as well. You're expecting a notable decrease in heat production with the fullsac setup and so am I which is why I feel like something is not exactly right given the amount of heat the bike is still producing. Maybe it's just me...?

HOGMIKE-
Thanks!  I know I should expect some heat but I was hoping to appreciate better temps after changing out the exhaust and tuner. I think I feel that way mainly due to the noted changes in temps from map to map. Obviously a simple fix would be to change maps but I really do like the way the bike is running right now.

Does anyone know at what engine temps as recorded by the tts I should become concerned that the bike is indeed running too hot?

[grc]

All I can tell you is that the '05 models didn't go into skip fire mode until 356°F head temperature.  Late models prior to 2014 have a different system that actually shuts the rear cylinder down, as you know, and the engine temp trigger point for that system is around 287°F as best I can remember.  That temperature wasn't chosen as a protection for the engine, it was chosen for rider comfort.

Since the older bikes didn't melt down at 350°, I doubt yours will melt down at the 310° you mentioned.  If you really want to affect the head temperatures, don't rely on dumping excess fuel into the engine, but install a set of fans to directly cool the heads instead.  Use the search tool and look for Wards cooling fans.  IMHO they are the best looking of the options available, and there are many positive reviews.  There are other options as well, I just mentioned one brand.

As for rider comfort, that is much more heavily influenced by the exhaust temperature, not the actual engine temperature.  Using rough numbers, while the heads may run between 250 and 350, the exhaust can run in the 800 to 1500 range.  This is why Harley shuts down the rear cylinder and just pumps air through it, that air also helps cool the rear exhaust pipe.

JMHO - Jerry

[Ridgerunr]

CVOmedic, if going to Doc, make an appointment in advance, he's usually booked up.

[CVOmedic]

Jerry-

Thanks for the advice on the ward's fans.  I remember when those came out and it looks as though they are still performing very well and continue to have great reviews.  I will most certainly look into those.  The temps you reference do make me feel better about whether or not I am potentially running too hot and causing damage to the motor but it still weighs on my mind how much difference the temps run from one map to another.  The initial map Steve sent a while back runs much cooler than the one I am running now but the performance seems to be better with the latter.  I have tried comparing the 2 maps but honestly I don't know enough about all the tables to know what affects what.  I can tell that the lambda table on the map I'm running does look richer than Steve's (smaller #s in the table); which is only right if I am correct in my assumption that, the smaller the number the richer the mix.

I think I may just leave it be for a while, order some fans and see what that does.  Either way, I really wanna make sure I prepared for that S. FL heat!

GRC-

Thanks for reminding me to do that in advance.  I know he stays busy!  I will need to make a decision soon and give him a shout.

[redmtrckl]

Get it dyno tuned and have the tuner put the Lambda table in open loop(richer) except for the cruising rpm.
AFR somewhere around 13.5 to 13.8 at idle and low rpm low MAP. Lambda at .920 to .940

[twinotter]

  I consider the "water cooled" to be a bit of a misnomer, designed to mislead the public into believing they have solved the heat issues.  It has a one quart capacity, and is designed to help keep the cylinder head temps around the exhaust valve under control. Nothing else!! Your 310 degrees is the cylinder head temp, not oil temp. The overall temps of the engine has not changed one degree imo. You mention you added slipons too, that only made an already lean engine run leaner.
HD cares nothing about your comfort, only the bottom line which is profit. If you really want it to run the way God intended an aircooled engine to run, open up the intake, change the exhaust eliminating the cat, change out the cams to one of the aftermarket ones like T24D or GMP577, and then have it professionally retuned on a dyno by a competent tuner! Air cooled engines, require a completely different set of rules to run right, 14.6 afr's will never work properly.
Harley has been fighting to keep their V Twin alive for some years now. As emissions have gotten strickter, the fight has progressed to survival!! The results are what your seeing now, an engine on the verge of destruction amost all the time. HD will eventually be forced to either build a proper liquid cooled v twin or go the way of the dinosaurs!! Everyone says that if they build a bike with a rad, they are done, I say bull, the vast majority of followers will buy the next greatest thing.
Maybe not!! they've proved they can't design a compensator, or a hydraulic clutch, I'm not sure why I could think they could redesign a complete engine/ frame package. There has never been a perfect Harley! Compared to what the Japanese can and do build, hell even Brigg& Stratton does better engines. And trannies. ANd clutches and so on.
I sincerely hope that someone at HARLEY wakes the hell up, or they'll be gone!! I own an 01 Dyna, S&S engine, most everything else modded for better life and performance. Wouldn't trade it for the world, but its not really a Harley anymore either. I'd never even consider a new HD under any circumstances.   twinotter

[tdkkart]

  I consider the "water cooled" to be a bit of a misnomer, designed to mislead the public into believing they have solved the heat issues.  It has a one quart capacity, and is designed to help keep the cylinder head temps around the exhaust valve under control. Nothing else!! Your 310 degrees is the cylinder head temp, not oil temp. The overall temps of the engine has not changed one degree imo. You mention you added slipons too, that only made an already lean engine run leaner.
HD cares nothing about your comfort, only the bottom line which is profit. If you really want it to run the way God intended an aircooled engine to run, open up the intake, change the exhaust eliminating the cat, change out the cams to one of the aftermarket ones like T24D or GMP577, and then have it professionally retuned on a dyno by a competent tuner! Air cooled engines, require a completely different set of rules to run right, 14.6 afr's will never work properly.
Harley has been fighting to keep their V Twin alive for some years now. As emissions have gotten strickter, the fight has progressed to survival!! The results are what your seeing now, an engine on the verge of destruction amost all the time. HD will eventually be forced to either build a proper liquid cooled v twin or go the way of the dinosaurs!! Everyone says that if they build a bike with a rad, they are done, I say bull, the vast majority of followers will buy the next greatest thing.
Maybe not!! they've proved they can't design a compensator, or a hydraulic clutch, I'm not sure why I could think they could redesign a complete engine/ frame package. There has never been a perfect Harley! Compared to what the Japanese can and do build, hell even Brigg& Stratton does better engines. And trannies. ANd clutches and so on.
I sincerely hope that someone at HARLEY wakes the hell up, or they'll be gone!! I own an 01 Dyna, S&S engine, most everything else modded for better life and performance. Wouldn't trade it for the world, but its not really a Harley anymore either. I'd never even consider a new HD under any circumstances.   twinotter

Been reading similar stories of doom and gloom for the last 15 years, you 'd think something would have come of it by now, but we just plugging along literally thousands of clunky ass old twin cam motors just keep right on running, completely oblivious to the nay-sayers.