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[Puma]

Powerboaters have similar concerns about ethanol as us bikers. I wonder if this biobutanol is any better.  http://www.passagemaker.com/articles/trawler-news/industry-news/industry-backs-biobutanol-as-alternative-to-ethanol/   

[Para Bellum]

Here's the best thing about Butanol: 

(from that article)  "Most notably, biobutanol does not phase-separate in the presence of water, as ethanol does. Phase separation occurs when water is introduced and ethanol separates from gasoline, forming two separate solutions. An engine won’t run on the ethanol solution, which sinks to the bottom of the tank and is corrosive."

[Puma]

Here's the best thing about Butanol: 

(from that article)  "Most notably, biobutanol does not phase-separate in the presence of water, as ethanol does. Phase separation occurs when water is introduced and ethanol separates from gasoline, forming two separate solutions. An engine won’t run on the ethanol solution, which sinks to the bottom of the tank and is corrosive."

That is the problem with ethanol that biobutanol apparently doesn't have. If the article is right about biobutanol, it is very promising. The only question after that would be, "does biobutanol have any of its own issues?"

[Beak Boater]

When I looked it up, it said its made with corn, like ethanol. It would keep the Corn Growers Lobby happy and if it didn't damage fuel systems, it looks like a win/win.
Problem is that we were told that Ethanol wouldn't hurt anything too.....and it really didn't until you got over 5% blends. Who do you believe???

[grc]

When I looked it up, it said its made with corn, like ethanol. It would keep the Corn Growers Lobby happy and if it didn't damage fuel systems, it looks like a win/win.
Problem is that we were told that Ethanol wouldn't hurt anything too.....and it really didn't until you got over 5% blends. Who do you believe???

And there is the rub.  This is a competing product, so it makes sense to be just a bit cautious about believing all the wonderful things they claim.  I knew it was flaky when the first article I found listed several "pros" for biobutanol, and then claimed they couldn't find any "cons".  There is no such perfect product, and everything has negatives to go along with the positives.

There has been heavy investment by all those insiders who convinced Congress to require the use of ethanol, in facilities to produce it as well as the money it took to convince those folks in Congress of course.  The facilities that make ethanol can't also make biobutanol, it's a different process.  They could convert those facilities of course, but that costs more money.  Why should they agree to do that when they already have the market cornered thanks to Congress?

Just based on the chemical makeup of butanol compared to ethanol, it should have more energy and thus wouldn't reduce fuel mileage as much as ethanol does.  But it still doesn't have the same energy density as gasoline, and it still has a different stoichiometric air-fuel ratio than gasoline so you can't just dump it in without altering the tune.  For example, stoichiometric is 14.7:1 for gasoline, 9.0:1 for ethanol, and 11.1 for butanol.  So no matter what the proponents might claim about being able to use it in gasoline engines with no changes, that is not really true.  The older engines that have a real problem with ethanol have no automatic features to adjust the AFR and would require retuning, just like older open loop engines in bikes or cars.  Butanol is just a different alcohol, so it still has some of the same characteristics common to other alcohols like ethanol.

It will be interesting to see if this competing product ever does replace ethanol.  As owners of Betamax video recorders might remember, the best solution isn't necessarily the one that wins.

Jerry



Since the proponents of butanol couldn't seem to come up with any "cons", I checked a few other sources and came up with this list, from Wikipedia:

The potential problems with the use of butanol are similar to those of ethanol:

-To match the combustion characteristics of gasoline, the utilization of butanol fuel as a substitute for gasoline requires fuel-flow increases (though butanol has only slightly less energy than gasoline, so the fuel-flow increase required is only minimal, maybe 10%, compared to 40% for ethanol.)

-Alcohol-based fuels are not compatible with some fuel system components.  (Same problem as ethanol for old boats, lawnmowers, bikes, etc.)

-While ethanol and methanol have lower energy densities than butanol, their higher octane number allows for greater compression ratio and efficiency.

-Butanol is one of many side products produced from current fermentation technologies; as a consequence, current fermentation technologies allow for very low yields of pure extracted butanol. When compared to ethanol, butanol is more fuel efficient as a fuel alternative, but ethanol can be produced at a much lower cost and with much greater yields.

-Butanol is toxic at a rate of 20g per liter and may need to undergo Tier 1 and Tier 2 health effects testing before being permitted as a primary fuel by the EPA.

[Puma]

And there is the rub.  This is a competing product, so it makes sense to be just a bit cautious about believing all the wonderful things they claim.  I knew it was flaky when the first article I found listed several "pros" for biobutanol, and then claimed they couldn't find any "cons".  There is no such perfect product, and everything has negatives to go along with the positives.

There has been heavy investment by all those insiders who convinced Congress to require the use of ethanol, in facilities to produce it as well as the money it took to convince those folks in Congress of course.  The facilities that make ethanol can't also make biobutanol, it's a different process.  They could convert those facilities of course, but that costs more money.  Why should they agree to do that when they already have the market cornered thanks to Congress?

Just based on the chemical makeup of butanol compared to ethanol, it should have more energy and thus wouldn't reduce fuel mileage as much as ethanol does.  But it still doesn't have the same energy density as gasoline, and it still has a different stoichiometric air-fuel ratio than gasoline so you can't just dump it in without altering the tune.  For example, stoichiometric is 14.7:1 for gasoline, 9.0:1 for ethanol, and 11.1 for butanol.  So no matter what the proponents might claim about being able to use it in gasoline engines with no changes, that is not really true.  The older engines that have a real problem with ethanol have no automatic features to adjust the AFR and would require retuning, just like older open loop engines in bikes or cars.  Butanol is just a different alcohol, so it still has some of the same characteristics common to other alcohols like ethanol.

It will be interesting to see if this competing product ever does replace ethanol.  As owners of Betamax video recorders might remember, the best solution isn't necessarily the one that wins.

Jerry



Since the proponents of butanol couldn't seem to come up with any "cons", I checked a few other sources and came up with this list, from Wikipedia:

The potential problems with the use of butanol are similar to those of ethanol:

-To match the combustion characteristics of gasoline, the utilization of butanol fuel as a substitute for gasoline requires fuel-flow increases (though butanol has only slightly less energy than gasoline, so the fuel-flow increase required is only minimal, maybe 10%, compared to 40% for ethanol.)

-Alcohol-based fuels are not compatible with some fuel system components.  (Same problem as ethanol for old boats, lawnmowers, bikes, etc.)

-While ethanol and methanol have lower energy densities than butanol, their higher octane number allows for greater compression ratio and efficiency.

-Butanol is one of many side products produced from current fermentation technologies; as a consequence, current fermentation technologies allow for very low yields of pure extracted butanol. When compared to ethanol, butanol is more fuel efficient as a fuel alternative, but ethanol can be produced at a much lower cost and with much greater yields.

-Butanol is toxic at a rate of 20g per liter and may need to undergo Tier 1 and Tier 2 health effects testing before being permitted as a primary fuel by the EPA.

Thanks Jerry. This unbiased and researched response is what I was hoping for when starting this. I'm not sure yet which is the lesser of the two evils. Like I said in the original post, "I wonder if this is any better." I'd rather have neither, but I don't think those days are ever coming back.

[Puma]

Interesting that the article comes from Passagemaker, a magazine that caters to long distance cruisers, and liveaboards. Trawlers for the most part, and most of those, but not all, are diesel these days. Do they even put ethanol in diesel?

[Para Bellum]

Well, here's a piece of the puzzle as to why current producers won't squawk about butanol:

"In September 2009, Gevo, Englewood, CO announced that Gevo Integrated Fermentation Technology (GIFT™) will be used in an ICM demonstration plant in St. Joseph, Missouri to produce one million gallons of biobutanol per year by retrofitting an existing ethanol plant. The process can utilise much of the existing ethanol production system, but uses cellulosic yeast strains engineered to produce butanol instead of ethanol."

Also, and more importantly, since butanol is a 4-carbon alcohol and ethanol is a 2-carbon alcohol, you can combine 2 molecules of ethanol to make butanol (plus water as a co-product).  So the ethanol output from a current plant can be fed into a new facility onsite to yield butanol.  There won't be too much push-back from existing companies.

[Para Bellum]

Interesting that the article comes from Passagemaker, a magazine that caters to long distance cruisers, and liveaboards. Trawlers for the most part, and most of those, but not all, are diesel these days. Do they even put ethanol in diesel?

Short answer: No. There is research ongoing to try this, but there are lots of barriers.
1.  Phase separation (water absorption) of e-diesel is even worse than e-gasoline unless expensive emulsifiers are added.
2.  Ethanol, gallon for gallon, has 42% less energy than diesel.  E10-diesel (10% ethanol) has 4.2% less energy than E0-diesel, with a corresponding 4.2% decrease in fuel economy and horsepower.
3.  E-diesel is much more volatile (able to catch fire) than diesel, to the point that e-d has to be handled with the same care as gasoline.  This is a major problem for storage and transportation.

But another piece of the puzzle for butanol:  it looks to be a much better fit for blending with diesel, since Bu doesn't absorb water, is much closer in energy content to diesel, and doesn't alter the flash point  like ethanol does.  So Eth producers would be interested in producing Bu so they can tap the diesel market.

[Puma]

Short answer: No. There is research ongoing to try this, but there are lots of barriers.
1.  Phase separation (water absorption) of e-diesel is even worse than e-gasoline unless expensive emulsifiers are added.
2.  Ethanol, gallon for gallon, has 42% less energy than diesel.  E10-diesel (10% ethanol) has 4.2% less energy than E0-diesel, with a corresponding 4.2% decrease in fuel economy and horsepower.
3.  E-diesel is much more volatile (able to catch fire) than diesel, to the point that e-d has to be handled with the same care as gasoline.  This is a major problem for storage and transportation.

But another piece of the puzzle for butanol:  it looks to be a much better fit for blending with diesel, since Bu doesn't absorb water, is much closer in energy content to diesel, and doesn't alter the flash point  like ethanol does.  So Eth producers would be interested in producing Bu so they can tap the diesel market.

It was a rhetorical question, I knew that diesel wasn't blended, but I didn't know the reasons. I just figured the ethanol wouldn't mix well. Thanks for the enlightenment. The volatility and fuel economy issues would kill two of the big benefits of using diesel in boats.

[Puma]

Isn't it nice to have a thread that isn't about the problems people are having with their bikes? So far, Biobutanol seems to at least be an improvement over ethanol. Stay tuned. If the past is any indication, we WILL move onto something after ethanol. Remember MTBE's.