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[flyguy]

For those of you that have installed the Premium Ride Double Cartridge Kit, I need some help.

I Had the kit installed a little over a week ago and went to a rally, put about 700 miles on the bike, got home and pulled in the garage and noticed when I had the front brake pulled a strange noise coming from the front forks during compression and rebound, like springs on an old bed.
Took it back to the dealer and they said yup the springs were installed upside down. They keep her and just flip the springs. OK so I pick her up next day and when I get home (didn't hear it at the dealer, kinda loud there) Same noise, not quite as loud but still there.
I'm now getting the answer that it's probably a normal noise for that Kit.
The bike does handle a little bit better, not as much dive, but also I feel every vibration from the road and seems much stiffer that I would have expected, like its all spring and no dampening.

So.. My question is those of you who have the kit, do you have this noise? Do you feel more vibration? Any thoughts? Trying to figure out if this is normal or not. Just doesn't sound or feel right to me.

Thanks

2013 CVO Ultra

[Ride2cusa]

Unfortunately, I can not speak to the Harley premium cartridge kit; but a about three years ago, I had my local Dealer install the Progressive Suspension Cartridge kit on an Electra Glide Ultra.

I do not remember any unusual sounds or noises after installation - but I found it very stiff, and it seemed I felt every little "bump" riding down the road.  So I called Progressive Suspension and after some discussion, I was told that there were three spacers included with the kit.  You were suppose to use none or all three of the spacers, depending on your weight, whether or not you rode single or two-up, and how "plush" you wanted the front fork to feel.

Turned out the installation instructions were not clear on this and all three spacers had been installed.  I had the Dealer take the forks apart and remove all three spacers.  I weight about 190, ride single, and wanted a "plush" ride - removing all three spacers solved my problem and I thought the Progressive Suspension Cartridges were a worthwhile upgrade.

I'm not saying the Harley kit is similar to the Progressive Suspension kit (I have no idea who makes the kit for Harley), but you might wan to look over the installation instructions yourself to see I there are any adjustments such as spacers.

Hope this is helpful

Regards

[dayne66]

Thanks for the enlightenment on the Progressives.......this fall I'll be pulling mine apart to see what I did in there.....mine seem stiff.

[phato1]

I have the Premium Dual Cartridges in the front end of my 11.5 CUSE. This is the second season I've had them in there and I haven't noticed any noise like you describe, the only noise mine makes is a "clunk" when hitting sharp bumps or potholes at slow speed and apparently that is a characteristic of the cartridges. Other than that they are smooth and quiet.
They are stiffer than the old stock stuff that's for sure - but that's why I like them. I might seem like your feeling every pavement imperfection in existence but I think that can be attributed to how soft and squishy the original suspension was. Also don't forget to check your tire pressure, it may have gotten increase by the folks at the dealer.....

One thing I noticed when they were first installed is it took about 1000 miles to truly set them in and since they had to correct the installation mistake  on yours that means you may need to "break them in" again. Or since the "installer" apparently can't follow an assembly diagram or directions... I might advise asking if the proper weight and amount of oil was put in the forks - the oil is only for lubricating the springs on the cartridges and does not provide any damping.

What, if anything have you done about the air shocks in the rear?

[grc]

I have the Premium Dual Cartridges in the front end of my 11.5 CUSE. This is the second season I've had them in there and I haven't noticed any noise like you describe, the only noise mine makes is a "clunk" when hitting sharp bumps or potholes at slow speed and apparently that is a characteristic of the cartridges. Other than that they are smooth and quiet.
They are stiffer than the old stock stuff that's for sure - but that's why I like them. I might seem like your feeling every pavement imperfection in existence but I think that can be attributed to how soft and squishy the original suspension was. Also don't forget to check your tire pressure, it may have gotten increase by the folks at the dealer.....

One thing I noticed when they were first installed is it took about 1000 miles to truly set them in and since they had to correct the installation mistake  on yours that means you may need to "break them in" again. Or since the "installer" apparently can't follow an assembly diagram or directions... I might advise asking if the proper weight and amount of oil was put in the forks - the oil is only for lubricating the springs on the cartridges and does not provide any damping.
What, if anything have you done about the air shocks in the rear?

Actually, the Progressive Monotubes are the ones that only use a small amount of fork oil to lube the seals.  The Harley kit still uses Type E fluid to fill the damper tubes and fork tubes to 4-3/4" down from the top with the springs removed and the forks compressed.  So it will be important to find out if this shop installed any fluid, and if so what viscosity and how much.  Also, the instructions plainly note that the springs be installed with the closer spaced part of the springs to the bottom.  Since they installed them upside down (maybe), they obviously aren't the type who actually read instructions.  I've attached a pdf of those instructions in case the OP doesn't have them.

Jerry

[garya1]

I cannot speak for the HD premium ride dual cartridge, but I can speak for the Ohlins Storz, and Traxxion cartridge kits and they all make fluid movement noises (like when you ride in a hydraulic elevator.) The loudest are the Ohlins as they are 30mm vs. 25 or 20mm on the others. In my experience this is a normal sound on the above listed double cartridge systems.

I would assume the HD cartridge operates on the same fluid movement principles and would also produce a similar noticeable sound.

[phato1]

Dang....Did it again, got two thoughts mixed up and they came out as one....

Jerry is correct...again LOL. The progressive  uses the oil to lube the system and the HD cartridges use the oil to provide some damping action.

If the OP's springs are making a sound like an "old bed" (which I'm taking to mean a squeaking sound) then as I posted previously I would suspect oil levels being incorrect.

[flyguy]

Thanks for all the well thought out answers so far.

I'm told that the Premium Double Cartridge's are made by Showa (sp) I guess they are the Harley supplier of choice.

I check the tire pressure religiously and even more since the front end change just to be sure to rule out other possible reasons. I have not changed the rear shocks, but have been considering it and doing research on whats best for this setup.

My only concerns with most of the rear shocks is that we do a lot of 2-up touring and 1 day I'm riding then the next it's the 2 of us, and pulling that rear bag when it's full of stuff to adjust is a bit of a pain. So i've been wondering what the alternatives to that are.

The noise is not a hydraulic noise at all, it's a springy noise not squishy Here's a link to a quick vid of the noise at HDForums, couldn't post it here.

 http://www.hdforums.com/forum/touring-models/1057033-for-those-that-have-the-premium-ride-double-cartridge-kit-help.html

I've read through the Install instructions and it doesn't mention any type of adjustment from shims/washers or amount of oil, I would think that the only adjustment in feel would be the type of oil 5,7,10 or 15 weight and the amount that was added could have something to do with feel. The dealer first told me that they put Screaming Eagle Fork oil in which is 15 Wt when they turned the springs around because of the initial noise I asked them to replace the oil with the proper type E oil which is 7w as I understand, whether that was actually done or not gives me pause for thought as replacing the oil is more time consuming than just flipping the springs.

Either way the noise from the springs seems abnormal to me, but I'll give it a few more hundred miles to see if that changes, if not then I'm going to request that they take it apart and check for proper installation again.

Again thanks for the input, it all helps to get the problem solved.

[garya1]

I agree with you. I would not ignore abnormal noises in the front end! The amount of oil varies the air spring action on the upper half of your front fork travel: More oil = higher air "spring rate" on second half of travel. This is the only adjustment you have along with actual spring rate changes.

The method for checking and adjusting this level varies by brand so I cannot tell you how to do this with the HD system. I would bet you have the wrong oil and probably also the wrong oil level.

As for adjusting the rear shocks for 1 up to 2 up, look at the HD

Premium Ride Hand-Adjustable Touring Shocks - Standard-Height

Part Number 54000008

These only require adjusting shock preload on one side. This is a legit way to do this as they do it all the time on front forks to get an in-between spring rate. Putting a 95nm in one leg and a 90nm in another leg = 92.5 nm spring rate.  with these shocks, you would only have to move one bag to adjust instead of both bags and the hand knob is easier than other methods of adjusting spring preload.
These are built to match your forks according to mother. At $549 they are less than half of many high end options.

[FlaHeatWave]

The '09SERG has 32k on the HD Premium shocks, 28k on the HD Premium Forks, still excellent handling / ride quality. Smooth from day one, no noise, no clunks... SE 15 wt.

Once the forks settled in (5-700miles)I played with the shock knob a couple of times, found the sweet spot. 'Mostly 2-up / loaded, no need to change when solo.

jmho, your results may vary...

[snowrider13]

I have the progressives in my 2003 RK, much better ride with less dive although firmer. My 2013 CVO RG has the double cartrige HD forks. Feel every little bump, expansion joint, clunky, but yet still have the nose dive when braking. They are JUNK in my book.

[flyguy]

I've put a few more hundred miles on them now since the springs were reversed, I do notice that there is less dive and less bounce to the front wheel especially in slow turns etc which I like, but I'm still concerned with the springy noise that I can hear when compressing the front end, it's not loud but it's certainly not normal; still sounds like an old motel bed on a Saturday night. With all the info from the forums and folks i've compared notes with it sounds like rear shocks are worth looking into. Next steps will be to go back to the dealer and re-diagnose the noise,maybe a bad component?, spring-'s, ??, once that is sorted, then look into rear shocks.
I really appreciate all the feedback from all the members that have chimed in, it's been a big help in trying to figure out whether there is a problem or not..  Still have to come to a conclusion on this, but the more info the better. Thanks

[Dan_Lockwood]

I'm still confused about the upside down springs.

Unless they're machined at one end to "fit" over the cartridge etc, what difference does it make if they're up or down when loaded into the forks?

Don't they basically float between the top and the bottom and give in the middle?  I don't mean literally floating, but held under compression at the top and bottom.

[grc]

I'm still confused about the upside down springs.

Unless they're machined at one end to "fit" over the cartridge etc, what difference does it make if they're up or down when loaded into the forks?

Don't they basically float between the top and the bottom and give in the middle?  I don't mean literally floating, but held under compression at the top and bottom.

Per the folks at Progressive Suspension, some companies advise installers to place the close spaced coils at the bottom to reduce spring noise, but as far as mechanical function is concerned it makes no difference which way you install the springs.  I still haven't figured out why they would be noisier with the close spaced coils at the top.

Jerry

[flyguy]

I can see it shouldn't make any difference in rebound rate which way the spring is installed, I guess? But if I understand your comment your saying there is spring noise. Thats exactly what I'm trying to discern; should there be spring noise or not? From other comments and folks i've talked to no one has reported "sprung bed" noise. My concern is not whether the springs are/were upside down but what is causing the noise; something else installed wrong?, long amount of oil? Type of oil? I would think I would hear more of a hydraulic noise than a spring noise. I know i'll either end up living with it or more probably tearing it apart to see why.