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[johnmowcop]

My CVO 110 2011 is consuming oil (after 17 years of Harley's this is the first one that needs continually topping up between services), it has about 19,500 miles on it. I think this may be a long shot but, if a power commander was not set up properly would it effect oil consumption. Not been setup on rolling road yet, just running with download. Can't see how it should but clutching at straws until I finally acknowledge the obvious, that I've been sold a lemon (even though I've had it from new), leaves a bitter taste when I have not had this before with all the other Harley's.

[grc]

Hard to imagine the tune being far enough off to cause an oil consumption problem, unless it was so rich it washed the cylinder walls down and caused accelerated ring wear or some other equally unlikely scenario.  In other words, I rather doubt it could be far enough off to affect it without you noticing how poorly the engine was running.

How much oil are you talking about?

Jerry

[mark]

Numerous reports of 110s using about 1 qt. per 1000 miles.  HD claims this is within specs.  If you're in this range, join the club.

[johnmowcop]

Hard to imagine the tune being far enough off to cause an oil consumption problem, unless it was so rich it washed the cylinder walls down and caused accelerated ring wear or some other equally unlikely scenario.  In other words, I rather doubt it could be far enough off to affect it without you noticing how poorly the engine was running.

How much oil are you talking about?

Jerry

Hello Jerry.

Just beginning to monitor it closely now. I put just over 1 litre in for about 1400 miles. But as I say I am just starting to write down what I put in and when.

The bike runs ok on the current download, it was just wishful thinking about the poor set up for the Power Commander.

The guides were ok at about 15,000 miles, I had the valve springs changed, new hydraulic cam followers, chain tensioners and cam bearings done as a preventative measure. At the same time valve stem seals changed as well. I assume the wear is in the rings, as apparently, there was no discernible lip in the bore so I assume it's the rings. You may remember some of my posts, you kindly offered advice at the time.

If I glaze bust the bores what are the best rings to fit. Does anyone do an oil control ring that works?

Another point; this kind of oil usage you would expect to see blue smoke. I had a friend follow me for a long time, he reported not smoke at all.

JohnT

[grc]

One liter in 1400 miles probably won't show blue smoke.  I've seen many cars and bikes that used more than a quart in 1000 miles and didn't have obvious smoking problems.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because you checked the guides and replaced the seals four thousand miles ago that the problem couldn't be valve related.  I'd still start out diagnosing the problem as if all possibilities were equally viable.  New seals have been known to fail.  Have you checked the air cleaner for excessive oil carryover?  The breather system could be allowing excessive amounts of oil into the air cleaner and intake.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the rings Harley uses, so it really shouldn't be necessary to look for a different brand of rings if you decide the problem is ring and bore related rather than head related.  What I would suggest, however, is if you decide you need to replace the rings you go ahead and have the cylinders measured for out of round as well as taper.  I don't believe in just using a simple glaze buster and installing new rings, especially when we know Harley has had some dimensional issues with 110 cylinders.  Have the cylinders checked properly using torque plates, then depending on what is found either clean up the bores with a good hone if everything is OK dimensionally, or have them bored to the next standard oversize and replace the rings and pistons if the bores are egg shaped or tapered.

Jerry

[Darkstar]

synthetic oil burns so clean that it is unlikely you are going to see a blue cloud.

[BritGuy]

Not much help, but my 2014 SERK hardly uses any oil at all. Lucky if I get to put in .25 litre between services. I was expecting more so still keep a close eye. It has 16,000 km on the engine.

[johnmowcop]

One liter in 1400 miles probably won't show blue smoke.  I've seen many cars and bikes that used more than a quart in 1000 miles and didn't have obvious smoking problems.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that just because you checked the guides and replaced the seals four thousand miles ago that the problem couldn't be valve related.  I'd still start out diagnosing the problem as if all possibilities were equally viable.  New seals have been known to fail.  Have you checked the air cleaner for excessive oil carryover?  The breather system could be allowing excessive amounts of oil into the air cleaner and intake.

I don't think there is anything wrong with the rings Harley uses, so it really shouldn't be necessary to look for a different brand of rings if you decide the problem is ring and bore related rather than head related.  What I would suggest, however, is if you decide you need to replace the rings you go ahead and have the cylinders measured for out of round as well as taper.  I don't believe in just using a simple glaze buster and installing new rings, especially when we know Harley has had some dimensional issues with 110 cylinders.  Have the cylinders checked properly using torque plates, then depending on what is found either clean up the bores with a good hone if everything is OK dimensionally, or have them bored to the next standard oversize and replace the rings and pistons if the bores are egg shaped or tapered.

Jerry

As always, thanks for the considered reply. I have been in engineering for 50 yrs, I have inside micrometers, vernier calipers and good old fashioned calipers with outside mics to play with. What are torque plates?, never come across them.

I have read a few threads about boring to plus 0.060ins, this apparently gives you 113 in cub. It also supposedly gets rid of the oil consumption problem. Jerry, what is your take on this?

JohnT

[grc]

Torque plates are used to apply a clamp load to the cylinders, approximating what they operate under while on the bike.  Basically two thick machined plates and four long bolts and nuts.  When the cylinders are torqued down on the engine, the bores tend to distort.  Using torque plates when measuring and when boring and honing helps to eliminate the affect of that distortion.  The best explanation includes a photo, so I dug up this link to a site that has good photo's and a good explanation of the process:

http://www.powerglides.co.uk/ar/bor_hon_tech.php

There are more than a few people on this site that have done the 113" conversion, and they would be the ones to ask for reviews of the result.  But yes, if the cylinders are in need of dimensional correction then that would be my recommendation as opposed to just buying another set of stock 110 cylinders. 

Jerry

[johnmowcop]

Torque plates are used to apply a clamp load to the cylinders, approximating what they operate under while on the bike.  Basically two thick machined plates and four long bolts and nuts.  When the cylinders are torqued down on the engine, the bores tend to distort.  Using torque plates when measuring and when boring and honing helps to eliminate the affect of that distortion.  The best explanation includes a photo, so I dug up this link to a site that has good photo's and a good explanation of the process:

http://www.powerglides.co.uk/ar/bor_hon_tech.php

There are more than a few people on this site that have done the 113" conversion, and they would be the ones to ask for reviews of the result.  But yes, if the cylinders are in need of dimensional correction then that would be my recommendation as opposed to just buying another set of stock 110 cylinders. 

Jerry

Thanks Jerry. All is now clear.

Interesting site and impressive facilities. Looks like the cylinders will be heading that way if that is the problem. I shall run it now until the salt is thrown around then I will strip it down. to try and establish the cause.

There is oil in the intake fed from the breathers. What would be indicative of breather problems. Do I have to check it whent its hot and running.

A pal of mine is a big fan of RaceCo valve guide inserts, he has used them on a Guzzi twin. There is a company not far from me that fits them. Do you have any views on them. I understand Guzzis and Harley's ran them successfully during the big twin battles.

JohnT