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[hd-dude]

When I saw how the stock afr line wandered on my SERK, I wanted the best harley fuel management system made hence the sert. I have been riding for 32 years and that was one of the leanest running ecm set-ups I have seen on a fuel-injected bike. Didnt want something that piggy-backed on the factory ecm base map. Not familiar with the Thundermax. The extent of the pc3 tuning each cyclinder is that you can trim the adjustments made for both cyclinders to vary by upto 5%(somewhere around there, I'm sure someone has the exact number) to account for afr variation.

I'm not sure where you are getting the info but there is not a 5% limit to the individual tuning adjustments. There are complete different maps availible for each cylinder, both for fuel and timing. Take a look at the files that Chief posted of the map entry software.

The bottom line here is that the PC and the RT both perform well just in different ways. There are advantages and disadvantages to both products.

 [smiley=beatdeadhorse.gif]

[e4seter]

When I saw how the stock afr line wandered on my SERK, I wanted the best harley fuel management system made hence the sert. I have been riding for 32 years and that was one of the leanest running ecm set-ups I have seen on a fuel-injected bike. Didnt want something that piggy-backed on the factory ecm base map. Not familiar with the Thundermax. The extent of the pc3 tuning each cyclinder is that you can trim the adjustments made for both cyclinders to vary by upto 5%(somewhere around there, I'm sure someone has the exact number) to account for afr variation.

The PCIII can add or remove both fuel and timing in 9 throtle positions and at every 250 rpm's from 0 to your rev limit. Every digit you put in a cell is 1%,  I have never seen a limit,  I E you can go over 100% more fuel in any cell,  However the only limit is the injector size and the fuel pump size.

[RedDevil]

Lets everyone understand one thing clearly. IF you want to perform better, you have only 2 choices for PROPER running bikes.
A.  The SERT tuned well, or the

B. Thundermax.  Add to the Thundermax Auto Tune, and you have the best system available.

oh yeah, Disclaimer:  You make any changes you should really learn about how to do it. IF you made a switch to a PC and it takes a crap, you will be running hot.  On the other hand, if the SERT does the same, you will probably be on the side of the road with a Dealer to rescue you.  If you have the SERT, and then buy a Tmax, and the Thundermax loses it, just hook the SERT back up and go.  

The difference is that the PC and others like it, is that they are fooling the ecm.  [highlight]The SERT IS the ECM[/highlight], and so is the Tmax. Chances of a total failure with these are unlikely just becasue I said so.

Rhino

dun

Rhino,
Technically, the SERT is not the ECM.  The factory ECM is never replaced by the SERT.  The SERT is actually an interface that is connected between the factory ECM and the computer that allows you to remap/reflash the memory in the ECM to whatever you want to remap it to on a dyno or by computer (if you're knowledgeable or brave enough to do), or you can load a factory map off of the CD, such as the commonly used "84" map if you change out the mufflers, pipes, and AC like I did before I even drove it away from the dealership the first time.  If you have the Thundermaxx in, that is a replacement ECM, and replacing it with the SERT will do nothing, you would have to carry the old SERT remapped factory ECM with you to replace the Thundermaxx with.  
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[bisounours]

Thanks Red,

It's necessary to use the right word for the right thing.
Effectively, the SERT will not replace the ECM, it's only an interface.
You have the right explanation.

Regards
Jacques

[Chief]

When I saw how the stock afr line wandered on my SERK, I wanted the best harley fuel management system made hence the sert. I have been riding for 32 years and that was one of the leanest running ecm set-ups I have seen on a fuel-injected bike. Didnt want something that piggy-backed on the factory ecm base map. Not familiar with the Thundermax. [highlight]The extent of the pc3 tuning each cyclinder is that you can trim the adjustments made for both cyclinders to vary by upto 5%[/highlight](somewhere around there, I'm sure someone has the exact number) to account for afr variation.

Kojak,

The information you have on the PC is outdated. While the cylinder trim capability is still there, you can convert any "Basic" map, meaning 1 fuel and timing table, to an "Advanced Map", with 2 fuel tables and 2 ignition tables. This capability is found under the "Tools" menu at the top of the screen.

Using an "Advanced Map" gives the tuner independent control for tuning both cylinders independently.

FYI, Fuel Table 1 is Rear, and Fuel Table 2 is Front. It would be nice if they told you that upfront.

I have never seen a limit,  I E you can go over 100% more fuel in any cell,  However the only limit is the injector size and the fuel pump size.

I did find out that if you go past 100%, the PC software gives you a "WARNING: Some table values are out of range." error.

Chief

[Unbalanced]

Technically, the SERT is not the ECM.  The factory ECM is never replaced by the SERT.  The SERT is actually an interface that is connected between the factory ECM and the computer that allows you to remap/reflash the memory in the ECM to whatever you want to remap it to on a dyno or by computer (if you're knowledgeable or brave enough to do), or you can load a factory map off of the CD, such as the commonly used "84" map if you change out the mufflers, pipes, and AC like I did before I even drove it away from the dealership the first time.  If you have the Thundermaxx in, that is a replacement ECM, and replacing it with the SERT will do nothing, you would have to carry the old SERT remapped factory ECM with you to replace the Thundermaxx with.  
Cheers ,
Red

Red,

In actuality you would have to carry the Stock HD ECM and the stock o2 sensors unless you have plugs or eliminators for them.

[e4seter]

the commonly used SERT "84" map .

Just a FYI for you SERT guys with a 110 .  There is a service bulletin TT284 dated 1/17/07 that says the current SERT maps do not support the auto compression releases.  A calibration will not be available until the next CD release, tenatively scheduled for Feb.

[hd-dude]

Any chance you can post the map?  Thanks,

Map is here:
http://flhrsei.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?num=1169769177/0

[RedDevil]

Just a FYI for you SERT guys with a 110 .  There is a service bulletin TT284 dated 1/17/07 that says the current SERT maps do not support the auto compression releases.  A calibration will not be available until the next CD release, tenatively scheduled for Feb.

Interesting...I didn't have any problems with the bike starting with the 84 map, and it starts up fine since the dyno.  Not really sure what that means to those of us that have already made the mods then.  My bike appears to be working fine without that new map.  Anybody else having startup problems since they changed out and remapped?
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[RedDevil]

Red,

In actuality you would have to carry the Stock HD ECM and the stock o2 sensors unless you have plugs or eliminators for them.

Unbalanced,
You're absolutely right.  I forgot about the fact that the Thundermaxx uses the wideband sensors and the stock ECM uses the narrowband ones.  Thanks for the catch on that one.  It's not just a simple swap out, that's for sure.
Cheer [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Hoist!]

Now let me get this straight. The ECM craps out you're out of business. This is true for SERT or PC mods? The TMax craps out, you put back the HD ECM with the SERT remapping and the NB O2 sensors. Some have said that the PC might crap out. It sounds like if you're planning a doomsday scenario, then why not just put a preprogrammed spare PC in your bag with the same map you've Dyno'd to. Sounds like that's the only back-up plan that will have your bike run exactly as before it failed. Not too expensive of an insurance policy. This certainly seems like the best way to deal with the issue while you're trying to maintain your 2 Year Warranty! After that, anything goes, it's just like it's always been on the road. You deal with it! Hoist! 8-)

[RedDevil]

Now let me get this straight. The ECM craps out you're out of business. This is true for SERT or PC mods? The TMax craps out, you put back the HD ECM with the SERT remapping and the NB O2 sensors. Some have said that the PC might crap out. It sounds like if you're planning a doomsday scenario, then why not just put a preprogrammed spare PC in your bag with the same map you've Dyno'd to. Sounds like that's the only back-up plan that will have your bike run exactly as before it failed. Not too expensive of an insurance policy. This certainly seems like the best way to deal with the issue while you're trying to maintain your 2 Year Warranty! After that, anything goes, it's just like it's always been on the road. You deal with it! Hoist! 8-)

Hoist,
If your ECM craps out, regardless of whether it's a factory ECM,Thundermaxx, or a PCIII piggy-backing on the factory ECM you're SOL until you get it fixed/replaced.  The advantage of the PCIII and the V&H Fuel Pak, is that they are used in conjunction with the factory ECM, so if the PC or the Fuel Pak craps out, you take them off and you still have the factory ECM there (providing it didn't crap out to) to get you to a dealer.  
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Hoist!]

Hoist,
If your ECM craps out, regardless of whether it's a factory ECM,Thundermaxx, or a PCIII piggy-backing on the factory ECM you're SOL until you get it fixed/replaced.  The advantage of the PCIII and the V&H Fuel Pak, is that they are used in conjunction with the factory ECM, so if the PC or the Fuel Pak craps out, you take them off and you still have the factory ECM there (providing it didn't crap out to) to get you to a dealer.  
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Exactly Red, if the HD ECM craps out under Warranty, it's HD's problem. But you can't run on only a stock ECM. So you do SERT, PC or TMax. With SERT you might/might not have a warranty problem, depending where you bring it when it breaks. And if the ECM craps out with a SERT in it, I doubt anyone but your dealer will be able to help you. If it craps out with the PC, I take off the PC and call HOG for pick-up. If the PC craps out, a spare, pre-programmed PC would leave you exactly as before failure. The TMax would be a major headache on the road! However, after warranty, the TMax AutoTune seems like the way to go. You know me Red, I'm trying to cover all the bases! BTW, I also carry a spare crank position sensor with me as well. Hoist! 8-)

[e4seter]

Now let me get this straight. The ECM craps out you're out of business. This is true for SERT or PC mods? The TMax craps out, you put back the HD ECM with the SERT remapping and the NB O2 sensors. Some have said that the PC might crap out. It sounds like if you're planning a doomsday scenario, then why not just put a preprogrammed spare PC in your bag with the same map you've Dyno'd to. Sounds like that's the only back-up plan that will have your bike run exactly as before it failed. Not too expensive of an insurance policy. This certainly seems like the best way to deal with the issue while you're trying to maintain your 2 Year Warranty! After that, anything goes, it's just like it's always been on the road. You deal with it! Hoist! 8-)

As a 45 year enthusiast, 10 with FI, and experience with a blown engine under warranty which cost me over 4k to fix on a FI bike with just SERT, Air cleaner and slip-ons,  leave your ECM stock if you are under warranty.  Use any piggy back device to correct the AFR, and if the motor starts to crap out, sounds different, leaks, runs hotter than normal, pay to have the bike towed home. Put everything back to stock (SERT will not allow this),  call any dealer and have them pick it up and fix it.  There will be no questions asked.

[Hoist!]

As a 45 year enthusiast, 10 with FI, and experience with a blown engine under warranty which cost me over 4k to fix on a FI bike with just SERT, Air cleaner and slip-ons,  leave your ECM stock if you are under warranty.  Use any piggy back device to correct the AFR, and if the motor starts to crap out, sounds different, leaks, runs hotter than normal, pay to have the bike towed home. Put everything back to stock (SERT will not allow this),  call any dealer and have them pick it up and fix it.  There will be no questions asked.

Thank you very much. That's been my conclusion and was looking for a little reassurance, I guess. Is the PC reliable these days? Is investing in a spare PC a wise move or waste of money?

BTW e4, did you see the post on the Doherty A/C. They will make it for the '07 with an S&S teardrop backplate instead of center hole. I won't have to do what you went thru for your S&S Cover. Thanks man! Hoist! 8-)