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[Hoist!]

Hallelujah!!!!! Seriously Bro I don't win you win. You are going to have a good running bike that will last you a long time by whatever means necessary.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

Thanks gang. It's like weight's been lifted off of me.

And d00d, thanks for not "really giving it to me"! Hoist! 8-)

[Fired00d]

......

And d00d, thanks for not "really giving it to me"! Hoist! 8-)

Ain't my style Bro. I did think I was going to have to get you to drink the "Kool-Aid" before you converted though.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Hoist!]

Ain't my style Bro. I did think I was going to have to get you to drink the "Kool-Aid" before you converted though.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

I'll bet Don will be surprised when he gets back! Hoist! 8-)

[SEULTRA]

Ain't my style Bro. I did think I was going to have to get you to drink the "Kool-Aid" before you converted though.

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

I would expect no less from you D00d... shows class.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
However.... Hoist must now be assimilated into the "stealth chrome" brotherhood.  

[Fired00d]

I would expect no less from you D00d... shows class.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
However.... Hoist must now be assimilated into the "stealth chrome" brotherhood.  

Shhhh. He swallowed a big pill today lets not give him any indication of what else is in store for him. [smiley=huepfenlol2.gif]

 [smiley=pumpkin.gif]
Ride Safe,
Fired00d
 [smiley=fireman.gif]

[Hoist!]

I would expect no less from you D00d... shows class.  [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif]
However.... Hoist must now be assimilated into the "stealth chrome" brotherhood.  

Please Jay, let me first get over the shock that I've just tossed my W....... out the window (I told you I won't mention that word again)! Baby steps! That one is actually going to be tougher to convince me. If it doesn't improve performance, handling, safety, reliability, or give me touring convenience, I probably won't do it. Except the rear floating rotor, rear SS brakeline, chrome rear master....Oh, nevermind!!! Hoist! 8-)

[HogBreath]

Hoist, I got your PM, I'll have to read that again at a later time. I just bot bombarded with ga-zillion things here in the office. My eyes are crossed, my head hurts, and there's too much going on at once for my feeble mind. I need a beer or twelve. I will say one thing, IF we can buy a $35,000 CVO and we have to worry about a $2,000 warranty because we modified the bike, We should have bought a $20,000 bike to start with. I'm with you..Warranty be damned!

[FLHRSE3]

Thanks Terry, it appears this moving target has changed again. So, first let me go on record right here and now, Screw HD's engine warranty!!! Getting my bike right is my first and foremost priority! Fighting with HD is secondary! Yes, I've changed my tune. Thank you all for finally opening my eyes. As of this moment I am resigning as Warranty Advocate of this site. As a matter of fact, this will be the last time you see a reference to a 2 Year Warranty from me! Go ahead, let me have it! I'm moving on.

I had a lengthy discussion this morning with my tuner (friend), who just got back from the latest PC training. There are many new developments with PC. Wide band O2 sensors, tie-in to PC's computers thru their "DT" program-which gets hooked up directly thru the Dyno, handlebar mounted switching between racing and economy modes and others. I didn't know it, but he's also a Zipper's dealer. So he has full access to the TM AT system as well. He's going to get me all the documentation, with the pros and cons of the PC and TM and we're going to decide, once and for all, what system to use!

So, we've determined that we need to permanently install whatever ECM modifications that each individual is comfortable with. I'm not going to debate as to which system is better. I'll do more research, talk and review it with my tuner, and make a decision that him and I are both comfortable with.

Another major change associated with this eye-opening morning. By making this permanent ECM change, True Duals are a MUST! [highlight]He can't properly tune, nor can the TM AT properly tune, a motor with HD's crossover, as you have all previously stated.[/highlight] OK, let me have it again! I told him to order whichever TD system he thinks will accomodate my SPO's and WB O2 sensors best. He explained that the oil temp should ideally be around 225 deg F and not exceed 240 deg F. he told me to continue breaking the bike in as is. My temp has not exceeded 210 deg F yet, so this weather is my friend with the stock set-up. All PC's new stuff and his PC Dyno program will be out within a couple of weeks.

I'm still going to do the stock base Dyno run I spoke of to satisfy my curiousity, but will not attempt to run with the PP and TD/SPO's. It will be to lean, so why bother. This means you can not run on the stock ECM ever again as long as you've done intake/exhaust mods., as you've also previously stated. OK, here's your chance, give it to me again!

So maybe our boy Hoist finally woke up, grew up or just smelled the roses. But I'm man enough to admit when I'm wrong. Not really wrong, just satisfying my "engineering" mind and making sure I've thoroughly reseached things enough to make a completely informed decision.

Summary. For anyone thjat's been following my thought process and mods associated with that process, and is trying to mimmick my changes, I'll say: IGNORE ANYTHING I'VE RECOMMENDED TO DATE REGARDING ECM MODS!!! Today is a new day and I've seen the light! So stay "TUNED". I'll let you know what's next, but it will not be based on maintaining Warranty. If this scares you, follow someone else's mods!

And last but not least, d00d, I give up. You win (I really win too)! Warranty be damned! Full speed ahead!!! Hoist! 8-)

First: That is an amazing turnaround Hoist, bet you don’t sleep tonight thinking about that whole warranty issue, just kidding man, if you run into problems good things usually happen to good people and chit usually happens to assholes.
Second:  I was not aware of this tuning issue, what would prevent the TM/AT from working with the stock head pipe?

Thanks

Gregg

[RedDevil]

Please Jay, let me first get over the shock that I've just tossed my W....... out the window (I told you I won't mention that word again)! Baby steps! That one is actually going to be tougher to convince me. If it doesn't improve performance, handling, safety, reliability, or give me touring convenience, I probably won't do it. Except the rear floating rotor, rear SS brakeline, chrome rear master....Oh, nevermind!!! Hoist! 8-)

Howie,
You've been pulled to the "dark side of the force". [smiley=wall.gif]  I've always said and I still maintain, you've got to do what you're comfortable with.    But beings you're being talked into things now, I could use a chrome inner primary, starter, and finish off all of my lines in braided lines.    Ride it like ya stole it Howie!!!! Damn the W..........ty, full speed ahead...!!!! 8-)
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

[Chief]

First: That is an amazing turnaround Hoist, bet you don’t sleep tonight thinking about that whole warranty issue, just kidding man, if you run into problems good things usually happen to good people and chit usually happens to assholes.
Second:  I was not aware of this tuning issue, what would prevent the TM/AT from working with the stock head pipe?

Thanks

Gregg

The problem with the stock headpipe is that at low throttle settings fresh air gets sucked UP the left pipe and discharged out the right pipe. When this fresh air goes past the O2 sensor, the sensor thinks it's running lean and the AT will try to put extra fuel in to compensate.

Is this really a problem? I don't really think so. If you're at 0% throttle and 3,000 RPM, you're coasting down, and the what's the worst that can happen, some popping? I don't think its that big of an issue because the engine isn't really doing anything except spinning from the wheel turning it.

I have foud this out first hand in trying to tune my PC with the Daytona Sensors Twin Scan, which uses wideband sensors just like the TM/AT. I can only get reliable AFR readings for the rear jug at low speed when I stuff a rag in the left pipe, and run it as a 2-1.

For those of you that feel air coming IN the left pipe is not possible, this past Saturday I left my house with an old bath hand towel tightly packed into the left pipe to seal it off. My intention was to map out AFR readings for low throttle riding and then remove it for the faster stuff. When I got to my buddy's house, the towel was gone. I figured it got popped out on the way over. NOT!!

The towel had been sucked into the pipe chamber, and didn't come out until later when I was doing some 4th gear WOT runs. I was in front, and my buddy was riding behind as this was happening.

After one pull where I first exceeded the century mark, when he caught up, he was laughing so hard, I thought he was going to fall of his bike. He said when I pulled away from him, all of a sudden, he saw the towel starting to emerge from the left pipe, and then finally get shot out of the pipe onto the road. This means that in the 8 miles I rode to his place, even though I was staying below 20% throttle, and avoiding hard decels, there is enough suction on the left pipe to suck that towel up into the pipe.

Sowhat does this mean? The stock crossover pipe makes true O2 sensor tuning very difficult. True duals would make it all a whole lot easier.

Chief

[Hoist!]

First: That is an amazing turnaround Hoist, bet you don’t sleep tonight thinking about that whole warranty issue, just kidding man, if you run into problems good things usually happen to good people and chit usually happens to assholes.
Second:  I was not aware of this tuning issue, what would prevent the TM/AT from working with the stock head pipe?

Thanks

Gregg

Thanks Gregg, frankly I think I'll sleep better now, knowing my bike will be set-up right, all the time, without scamming anyone! I'll fight for my warranty, if necessary, if it's even needed.

Re the tuning issue, he explained that the crossover causes mixed readings at the sensor points and will also cause cold air to be sucked up the left pipe at times, showing additional misreading of each cylinder's real condition. Since each cylinder can be tuned individually, each needs its own accurate reading to properly adjust it. It's not that you can't tune it, but you'll get a much better tune with individual pipes for each cylinder. This might not be 100% accurate, but it's my understanding of the impact of factory headpipes used in WideBand sensor measurement/application and individual cylinder tuning. Hoist! 8-)

[FLHRSE3]

Thanks for the explanation Chief, it looks as though as might as well budget for something more than slip-ons right from the get go.  That rag shooting out had to be a comical sight.

Gregg

[Hoist!]

Howie,
You've been pulled to the "dark side of the force". [smiley=wall.gif]  I've always said and I still maintain, you've got to do what you're comfortable with.    But beings you're being talked into things now, I could use a chrome inner primary, starter, and finish off all of my lines in braided lines.    Ride it like ya stole it Howie!!!! Damn the W..........ty, full speed ahead...!!!! 8-)
Cheers [smiley=xyxthumbs.gif],
Red

Red, you must know by now that I'm not easily talked into things. It took 3 months of research, and discussions here and with tuners to make this decision. An infomed decision I've made on my own, just like big boy. People here joke about spending your money and talking you into something. I don't see it like that. I feel they are all being helpful and sharing with us the benefit of their experiences (in their own playful ways), which actually is saving us money!

You've always said, still maintain, and I agree, you've got to do what you're comfortable with. That's exactly what I'm doing! Hoist! 8-)

[ultrafxr]

Coffee spew all over the keyboard.  The thought of seeing your bike chitting that towel out its left tailpipe had me laughing my a** off.  Wish you had a video!

[Midnight Rider]

Coffee spew all over the keyboard.  The thought of seeing your bike chitting that towel out its left tailpipe had me laughing my a** off.  Wish you had a video!

Me too, Jerry...it's amazing the thing didn't catch on fire when it was coming out!!  Can you imagine some unsuspecting motorist seeing a flaming towel coming out of a HD?   [smiley=huepfenjump3.gif]