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[ghost183]

so what could it be? this is the second replacement i installed personally,  not including the 1st the dealer installed, and its still wont start in gear




its a 2008 FXSTSSE2, CVO Springer Softail..


the dealer changed out the original one and without testing it i drove off, i later found out it wasnt working 2-3 days later when i tested it, be that as it may, i ordered a new replacement, changed it out myself, soldering and heatshrink to no joy, figured bad switch, it happens, but i now just replaced it again and still not working..


thats 3 in total, back to back.. i spoke to another dealer who said something about the ECM?!!?


any ideas guys?

[Jeff G]

I'm sure I am missing something, but why would you want your bike to be able to start in gear?

[grc]

Jeff, you're supposed to be able to pull the clutch in and crank the engine even when the trans is in gear.  In the bad ol' days you could do that even without disengaging the clutch, which wasn't exactly a safe thing to do.  So a clutch interlock switch was added for 2007 that is tripped when you operate the clutch lever.  If the ECM gets a signal from the neutral switch showing the trans is in neutral, it will allow the starter to operate.  If the neutral switch shows the bike is in gear, the ECM looks at the clutch lever switch to see if the clutch has been disengaged.  If it has, the ECM will allow the starter to run.  If it hasn't, the starter will not operate.

Seems pretty simple, but obviously in this case there is something wrong other than the clutch switch.  Time to first make sure the lever is actually closing the switch (don't assume, make sure the lever is actually pressing the end of the switch).  The reason I say that is based on issues others have reported when they changed clutch levers.  Many levers are not made to work with these switches.  If that is OK, then you need to go to the correct terminals in the connector for the ECM and check continuity with the clutch disengaged, and then with the lever released.  If you get the same result no matter if the lever is released or pulled in, start tracing the circuit from one end to the other.

Btw, are you running the stock ECM, and if so do you have anything like a Power Commander plugged into the ECM connection?  Aftermarket ECM's, or piggyback devices like a PC, can cause problems like this.

Jerry

[Road Dad]

Why would you ever want to put it in neutral? 

Always leave it in first gear, that is your parking brake.

Only reason for neutral is possible when it's in the shop.

[ghost183]

hey jrry..
  yah, its the oem ecm, tuned but oem none the less,  i checked the switch for function after installation by pinning the wiring coming down from the handle bars next to the steering head, i know the colors, black'red tracer, black/gray tracer


im left with tracing the wiring and going to the pigtail, i know its the gray harness under my seat.. ill update as i follow thru

[Twolanerider]

Why would you ever want to put it in neutral? 

Always leave it in first gear, that is your parking brake.

Only reason for neutral is possible when it's in the shop.

Park it in first.  Start it in neutral.  It's a little easier on the system.  Old habits from pre-automatic compression release days are hard to break.

[Jeff G]

I started my bike one time in gear with the clutch disengaged,on a flat parking lot and it sounded like I was tearing something up in the trans,and the bike felt like it was still part way in gear. Since then I will only start it in neutral. 

[grc]

I started my bike one time in gear with the clutch disengaged,on a flat parking lot and it sounded like I was tearing something up in the trans,and the bike felt like it was still part way in gear. Since then I will only start it in neutral.

Your clutch wasn't releasing completely (dragging).  If the clutch works the way it's supposed to, those affects would be minimal.  Cold would be worse than hot.

I also normally start my bike in neutral, but if I get a stall in gear I just pull in the clutch and hit the starter button.  That's why it's important that this system works correctly.  Think about being stalled in gear on a railroad crossing for instance.  Do you want to screw around trying to get it back in neutral, or would you prefer to just pull the clutch lever and hit the starter?

Jerry

[ghost183]

ok fellas..


  i found the problem.. errrr.. both problems..


break in the wire under the tank, repaired..


and the second part of the problem is, the switch thats installed, by both me and the deal is a normally open switch, and the bike needs a normally closed switch..




meaning, as per OEM, when the clutch lever is at rest, the switch is depressed opening the circuit and not allowing the starter relay to energize the starter... indicating a normally closed switch (when switch is at rest)


in this case being the wrong switch...
 
when the clutch is at rest the switch is depressed closing the circuit allowing the starter to engage, and when you pull the clutch, it opens the circuit NOT allowing the starter to turn..






better explanation for anyone else that might have the same problem..





the switch as per oem installation is actually being held open by the roller in the clutch lever


when you pull in the lever, is releases the switch allowing it to close and complete the circuit






a normally closed switch will complete the circuit when it is at rest, i.e. when you pull in the clutch and release the switch


a normally open switch will open the circuit whenit is at rest, i.e. when you pull in the clutch and release the switch


hope this will help anyone with the same problem

[skratch]

ok fellas..


  i found the problem.. errrr.. both problems..

so are you saying that if you order the switch by the parts manual, they will send you the wrong switch?

[ghost183]

no, but i hope not, i just ordered the HD switch..


i cheaped out thinking a switch is a switch and bought a generic brand,  but not so..


even the dealer stated the same thing.. "what do you mean? they are all the same switches"  hows that for an HD dealer?? lol..

[Twolanerider]

no, but i hope not, i just ordered the HD switch..


i cheaped out thinking a switch is a switch and bought a generic brand,  but not so..


even the dealer stated the same thing.. "what do you mean? they are all the same switches"  hows that for an HD dealer?? lol..

You're saying that you and the dealer both coincidentally and redundantly installed the same incorrect non-HD switch?

[grc]

Harley has two switches that will fit and work, and the same switch is used for both the clutch interlock and the front brake light on the '08 Springer.  The one the parts book calls for on that bike is over $60, whereas the earlier version ran about $20.  And the internet has tons of offerings claiming to be a direct replacement, but you need to be careful believing everything you read in those online ads.

I've got a feeling the real problem in the first place was the damaged wire under the tank, not the switch.  So maybe the dealer used the correct part number but of course it still didn't work, not because of the switch but because of the wiring problem. 

71621-08
71590-96A (obsolete)

Jerry

[ghost183]

ok, that $60 switch was the correct one, everything is working fine now as as intended..


like i mentioned, that $60 switch is a normally closed switch..


as far as me and the dealer installing the same switch..  well.. like grc mentioned.. the normally open switches are EVERYWHERE.. and start at $9, im sure me and the dealer installed different mfg switches..


i went to another dealer and asked for the switch before we ordered it , and he too directed me to the wrong switch.. i had to point it out that it costs $60 for a reason  and we ordered the correct one..


the break in the wire was coincidental and probably done during the re-installation of my tank after my stage 4 job..




like jerry mentioned.. ive gotten overzealous with the clutch lever leaving a stop light and stalled it, rushing to find neutral cause of unhappy drivers behind me, but now im a happy camper..




errrr. rider

[hogdooz]

Thanks for this thread, my 2015 FLTRUSE just began not starting in gear yesterday, will start in neutral just fine. It's completely stock, nothing has been removed or changed. There was a previous problem with the cruise control dropping out and the gear indicator light not working, they said it was the clutch switch. Since it's under warranty, I think I'll take it in and let them find the problem.